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Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Shawn Riebe (---.midco.net)
Date: January 24, 2021 05:33PM

I ordered 4 X-ray blanks and have to figure out the guides for them. I have an Mb 736, SJ 736, flip 766, and a SJ 732. I would like to make these decent feeling and light weight. I have read a ton and struggled to figure out the difference in guides.
Is there a big difference between stainless and titanium, Alconite and sic? I guess I don’t want to have to waste money if there is no need, but willing to if it makes a significant difference. I saw a video where Kyle Welcher said he puts stainless alconites on his braided rods and titanium on his fluoro rods. Not sure why?
Please share your knowledge and experience with me here. What do you prefer and why.

Thanks

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: January 24, 2021 06:08PM

Shawn can you post a link to the video? I'd like to hear what Kyle has to say, I'm looking forward to the replies you get.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: January 24, 2021 06:47PM

A KR guide set BC grey frames, 20H,10H, 5.5M, 2 KB 5's, all fazlite, 5- 4.5 Alconite KT's and a 4.5 tip weighs 7 Grams. We can start there. A Bc grey 20H sells for $4.47, It's Titanium Torzite counterpart for about 10x that. 4.5 KT BC Alconite $2.49, Titanium Torzite, $8.10.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2021 08:47PM by Lynn Behler.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: January 24, 2021 07:34PM

Shawn,
More information is required for proper replies; line rating of the blanks, spin or cast, salt or fresh, size of reel, what size of braid or mono/floro, single or double foot guides, to start with. If you are uncertain if you want NGC, KR Concept or MicroWave guide-trains, we can help (possibly confuse) you with that later.
For starters on a few of your questions:
SS verses Ti; Ti is virtually corrosion proof, weights less at the same strength, but can cost 2-4X more than SS. It is certainly the best choice for saltwater if you can justify the cost. There many different alloys of SS, with 304 and 316 being the most common for guides. 304 is cheaper but less corrosion resistant than 316 which is one of the best SSs concerning corrosion. Additionally, Fuji offers a number of their SS (304?) guides in their new “Corrosion Control” finish which I have gladly accepted and use.
Ring material; there is a vast array of ring materials used by the different manufacturers and a vast array of sales pitches as well. Fuji’s Alconite is in the middle of their insert lineup and my go-to choice = an excellent choice at a reasonable cost for all but the most demanding applications.
It should be obvious that I am a Fuji Fan; I rarely use other components. Whether a rookie or veteran rod builder, all can benefit from Fuji’s relentless R&D to supply quality components and entire concepts to our industry. Paired with Angler’s Resource and their GPS software, they have taken the guesswork out of guide-trains.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: January 24, 2021 07:57PM

Unless you are reeling in 200 pound plus tuna you won't need SIC guides. They are usually the most expensive and hardest made, but this also makes them the most brittle and easiest to break and shatter. I never use SIC guides and quite happy with Alconite. I also personally don't see any need for titanium. Kind of overkill.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Eric Green (---.nctv.com)
Date: January 24, 2021 08:32PM

I spend a lot of time bass fishing and have built most of my ~30 rods on NFC IM blanks. I build the lightest rods possible and am not really concerned with corrosion. For fresh water I can't justify the exorbitant cost of titanium. While I like fuji guides, most of my baitcasters have American Tackle Artus ringlock runners in size 4. They're light and I can use them for flouro, mono, and will easily pass an Alberto knot with braid and flouro leader. I'll use a single size 5 or 6 AT ringlock fly guide as the butt guide and I forhan lock wrap all. I static test guide placement and don't tolerate line on the blank under a reasonably heavy load so I probably use more of those little guides than most here. I find the line control exceptional and they're so light it doesn't negatively impact the weight or action. Split grip and reel seat and my rods are super light. The AT ringlock micros come in duralite and nanolite. I have had no issues with the cheaper duralite.

I love my MB 705 IMs and am curious to know what folks think about the xrays.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Shawn Riebe (---.midco.net)
Date: January 24, 2021 08:39PM

Lynn, I just looked for the video and couldn’t find it. I will look again, but I wrote it down when I heard it. He didn’t give much reason, just stated that is what he did. Being sponsored by Point Blank and Fuji, it peaked my interest.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: January 24, 2021 08:52PM

Shawn unless I'm mistaken, I don't think he has much of a reason. Lol I could well be mistaken, but I'm not seein' it.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Shawn Riebe (---.midco.net)
Date: January 24, 2021 08:54PM

Mark, Kent, and Eric: Thank you so much, these ideas are what I was wanting to hear. I apologize for not giving more info. I know better in order to get accurate info. I am a freshwater only (Minnesota) bass fisherman. I use fluorocarbon, braided, and rarely mono lines. On my casting rods, I will use 12-20 pound fluoro for jigs and Texas rigs. I also use some 30 pound braid for pitching in weeds and 40-50 pound braid for heavy weeds with a frog or pitching heavy weeds. 3 of these rods will be casting and one will be spinning. I will be using Daiwa Tatula SV and Zillion SV reels. Spinning will be a 2500 or 3000 Daiwa.

It seems like a lot of what I read says Titanium frames and sic or Torzite is overkill. It was interesting to hear that they are more brittle and may break easier. ( great info for this rookie idiot to know, I have a lot to learn).

Eric, glad to hear you have experience with NFC IM blanks. That is the flip 766 blank I bought. I have heard these are great blanks so I just want to try to put together the best rod I can.

Thanks for educating this newby. I am enjoying absorbing this like a sponge.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Kendall Cikanek (---)
Date: January 24, 2021 09:14PM

I have to call out one of the sponsors here, and their product line, for all the right reasons. Rod Builders Warehouse sells the SeaGuide titanium line with their silicon nitride rings. They have wonderful customer service. They even specially imported a tip top in the size I needed to facilitate my build. Silicon nitride is hard and durable. The price/value ratio is pretty incredible.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: January 24, 2021 10:48PM

I found an old quote from Jim Meehan of American Tackle discussing SIC guides and their problem with manufacturing them:

"The Nanolite ring is around 1800 VH just under SiC @ 2200. The ring like SiC, will handle wire line in recreational situations and will certainly stand up to the various super braids. The extra hardness of SiC is just not worth it in our opinion. We could very easily use SiC with these guides but it would increase the price and reduce the durability. The fragile nature of SiC contributes to cracking and ring loss.

The testing on the durability was simple. Our factory which punches both SiC and the Nanolite rings for us in our guide frames see the very apparent differences in ring strength. They tell me the SiC is very brittle and they get a very high breakage rate when punching them into the frame. They tell me the Nanolite ring is extremely strong so much so they were able to reduce the mass of the ring and still come out ahead of SiC in strength. The rings in the Turbo's are our full size rings but still smaller than SiC.

We had the Turbo's wrapped up on a 30 lb graphite blank at the ICAST show. All we had to do was hand the rod to a customer and they were sold. The rod felt like an ultra light. The Titan Turbo's are so light they defy all expectations. They will never rust, they are flexible and best of all the lightest guide ever made in their class.

Warmest regards, Joe Meehan, American Tackle"

And if you do a google search on SIC guides and the word "brittle" you will see it comes up a lot. Even the manufacturer above uses the word brittle to describe SIC guides and how easily they break. Not worth it. Kendall's suggestion sounds good. I'll have to look into those...

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 25, 2021 05:28AM

Lets consider two different situations. One, you build a rod for sale to a customer. Two, you build a rod for yourself.

If you build a rod for yourself, and the guides corrode and the inserts pop out, it isn't a huge deal to cut all of them off and replace them.

If the same thing happens for the customer he may feel the cost exceeds the value of the rod. Assume a saltwater rod with under wraps and three or four different color threads. Between the cost of better guides, and your labor to strip and re-wrap the rod, he could be looking at north of $200. Maybe he would have been better served to spend the extra money on the guides to begin with?

I'll admit I'm not willing/able to pay the price for titanium and torzite. I use a lot of alconites. If I could find a 316 SS frame with zirconia insert that had the same fit and finish I would use more of the.

I see no justification for using the same class guide on a fresh water bass rod and a saltwater tuna, or even bonefish, rod. Alconites get the job done and I'd rather spend the extra money on a better blank.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: John DeMartini (---)
Date: January 25, 2021 10:21AM

I bass fish, SIC tip with PacBay minima guides.

Have fun

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: January 25, 2021 10:23AM

Just go with Stainless Steel frames and any guide ring material you want. Fuji Titanium framed in size 4 mm don't really weight any less than the SS frames. I have weighed them and they are all over the place because the stamping is not that precise. In larger sizes there are some small differences but not enough to be a problem. I would only do Titanium frames in saltwater use. The ring material really doesn't matter as much as guide size and spacing. I have found that Fuji rings do not fail (pop out) as much as others, so the quality is slightly better. REC guides don't have ceramic rings and they work just fine. For what you are doing I would go with a RV 6 then the rest KT and KB 5s. The RV 6 is just for height but a KW 12 or KW 10 would also work. Another way if you really want to go micro is; RV 6, KB 5 and the rest KB and KT 4s with a 4.5 mm tip top. Seaguide, American Tackle, Batson/Alps and few others all make guides similar to Fuji in size and will work just fine.

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Re: Guide differences. Big or small?
Posted by: Shawn Riebe (---.midco.net)
Date: January 25, 2021 05:10PM

Thanks a lot you all. You saved me a lot of money and helped me learn. Much appreciated. I am going to check out your suggestions and maybe order some of each to try on different rods. Sounds like there is really no right or wrong way to buy these. I am just going to have to dive in.

THANK YOU ALL!

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