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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 10, 2021 10:46PM

Spending less on a reel quickly adds a few oz.
Going with a 7 to 7'6 rod with 9 inch handle. Almost guarantees a tip down balance. Which is not optimal when fishing from a canoe.
I know nothing about guides. Whats the cost difference between a good guide and quality light guide?
Thanks...

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 10, 2021 10:48PM

I will check that out. Late last year I started closing the bail by hand. And I'll definitely continue.
Thanks

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 10, 2021 11:09PM

I only tease the fish with the popper. So I dont need a heavy popping rod.
As far as casting distance. When fishing from a canoe. "Boat control" is a major challenge.
Even fighting a fish can pull the canoe around and out of position.

Drags...If you have a 1000 size spool that has 7# of max drag and is theoretically set at 4#.
And a 4000 reel with 26# of max drag set a theoretically 4#. Will one of them let the line out smoother when a nice fish makes a run?

Thanks...

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 10, 2021 11:32PM

I am not worried about running out if drag. I was asking if a 1000 reel with 7#max drag would have a smother or worse drag than a 4000 reel with max 26#. Assuming both reels were theoretically set at 4#.
After I figure out rods and reels. I would love to pick your brain on Minnesota smallmouth fishing.
And my nephews wife just graduated with a degree in Marine Biology. And is looking for a job.
Thanks...

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 10, 2021 11:53PM

What kind of popper fishing do you guys do where you need heavier rods?
The only way I have fished little poppers. Is to twitch and let sit.

Yes, Rodgeeks does not have a large selection of 2 piece St Croix blanks.
The one I did find was $195.00

I have flyfished some in the past. I gave the rods to my nephew. I just enjoy spinning more.

Thanks...

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 11, 2021 12:10AM

The info on the blanks was very helpful.
I checked out a vanford 3000 with the 6.4:1 ratio. It was much louder cranking than the Ballistic 2500.
I checked 2 other vanford 3000. All three were loud. Must be the micro gears.

What weight leader do you recommend?
We get quite a few little northerns cutting our line.

Thanks...

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 11, 2021 12:13AM

I am a teaser..
What is the skip method?

Thanks...

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 11, 2021 12:20AM

I wish I knew what the "quote button was before I responded to all the comments:(

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 11, 2021 02:27AM

Tim, under the Carbon 2 series, RodGeeks has a 2pc 7' ML ($59) and a 4pc 6'6" ML ($64).

Yup, the Vanford is loud. The Stradic FL is smoother (not the Ci4 one). As mentioned a heavier reel will help to balance the rod.

Look at it like this. For a given speed that the fish takes drag at..... the larger the spool the lower the RPM of the spool. I doubt it makes much difference with a smallmouth but I would say the 3000 would have a theoretical advantage over the 1000. I also think it helps balance the rod better. With an extra 2500 spool, one loaded with braid an one with mono, you can cover a lot of ground with one reel. There is a guy here who is into smallmouth and he only uses a 3000, typically with flouro line.

I'd say most of us want the popper to pop/chug.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: January 11, 2021 10:23AM

Tim: You sound like a prime candidate for using a fly rod and a fly rod popper on SMB?! Warning! If you do you might not go back to a spinning rod.

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: January 11, 2021 05:35PM

Yes a larger diameter spool is going to result in a smoother drag. The line isn't turning as tight of a circle so it will so it will pull off the spool easier. There are more than a few ways you can demonstrate this to yourself with common household items and some fishing line.

As far as spool diameter and casting distance goes ..... you mentioned using braid on your spinning gear. My experience with braid on spinning gear is very limited. I tried it for about a month and hated it, and I haven't tried it since. I've also never used a 1000 series spinning reel. Shimano used to sell a 2000 series reel and I have used those and 3000 series Shimano series reels. Results may be different with braided line, but using the same line on each reel, the 3000 series reel out cast the 2000 series reel by quite a bit. The larger diameter spool keeps its' diameter far better than a smaller diameter spool on a long cast. Also, because the diameter stays up on the larger diameter spool, the line isn't in as heavy of contact with the spool lips as a small diameter spool where the line on the spool has been depleted because of a long cast.

As far as lighter reels significantly affecting rod and reel balance. A lot of that depends on how you hold the rod, Personally, I and pretty much everyone else I know is actually gripping the reel seat when they hold a spinning rod, so .... unless the difference in weight is substantial. or the reels carry their weight differently in relationship to the reel stem, reel weight does not have a substantial effect on rod and reel balance.

As far as casting an 1/8 oz popper.....unless you count popping bug flies, I've never even seen one that small. lol I can't imagine it casting very well at all. I'd be looking at a blank with a very light tip to throw something that light. I don't throw poppers that small, but this past year I had some success with shallow fall smallmouth by throwing unweighted Z Man Trick Shotz, both the 3.5" and the 4.2",on nothing but a 1/0 or 3/0 Owner Down Shot hook. While the bait doesn't pop, it floats and darts on the surface. I threw them on one of my drop shot rods because the light tip was the only thing that would load well enough to get any kind of casting distance.

Anyhow, I'd be looking at a drop shot blank for what you're intending to do.

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: January 11, 2021 09:37PM

Maybe this? [www.mudhole.com]

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 11, 2021 11:59PM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes a larger diameter spool is going to result in
> a smoother drag. The line isn't turning as tight
> of a circle so it will so it will pull off the
> spool easier. There are more than a few ways you
> can demonstrate this to yourself with common
> household items and some fishing line.
>
> As far as spool diameter and casting distance goes
> ..... you mentioned using braid on your spinning
> gear. My experience with braid on spinning gear is
> very limited. I tried it for about a month and
> hated it, and I haven't tried it since. I've also
> never used a 1000 series spinning reel. Shimano
> used to sell a 2000 series reel and I have used
> those and 3000 series Shimano series reels.
> Results may be different with braided line, but
> using the same line on each reel, the 3000 series
> reel out cast the 2000 series reel by quite a bit.
> The larger diameter spool keeps its' diameter far
> better than a smaller diameter spool on a long
> cast. Also, because the diameter stays up on the
> larger diameter spool, the line isn't in as heavy
> of contact with the spool lips as a small diameter
> spool where the line on the spool has been
> depleted because of a long cast.
>
> As far as lighter reels significantly affecting
> rod and reel balance. A lot of that depends on how
> you hold the rod, Personally, I and pretty much
> everyone else I know is actually gripping the reel
> seat when they hold a spinning rod, so .... unless
> the difference in weight is substantial. or the
> reels carry their weight differently in
> relationship to the reel stem, reel weight does
> not have a substantial effect on rod and reel
> balance.
>
> As far as casting an 1/8 oz popper.....unless you
> count popping bug flies, I've never even seen one
> that small. lol I can't imagine it casting very
> well at all. I'd be looking at a blank with a very
> light tip to throw something that light. I don't
> throw poppers that small, but this past year I had
> some success with shallow fall smallmouth by
> throwing unweighted Z Man Trick Shotz, both the
> 3.5" and the 4.2",on nothing but a 1/0 or 3/0
> Owner Down Shot hook. While the bait doesn't pop,
> it floats and darts on the surface. I threw them
> on one of my drop shot rods because the light tip
> was the only thing that would load well enough to
> get any kind of casting distance.
>
> Anyhow, I'd be looking at a drop shot blank for
> what you're intending to do.


Teen Pop-R
[www.lurenet.com]

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Mo Yang (---)
Date: January 13, 2021 09:42PM

I don't fish with your type of setup but have a few thoughts.

1. If you want maximum casting distance, perhaps you can consider Gliss line. That is one of the longest casting line I know of in a spinning reel. 8 lbs test is equal in diameter to 2 lbs japanese Fluoro.

2. Given your lb test and braid, I believe that any reel from 1000 up would be large enough. Drag smoothness is more than adequate with 1000 and up as many fish 2 lbs test and routinely land trout up to 10 lbs in my area. If 1000 is good enough for 2 lbs, I would venture that it would be smooth enough for 6-10 lbs.

3. As to tip heavy, it also depends on how you hold your rod and reel. I place the reel foot between my pinky and ring finger, and that does wonders in balancing out a tip heavy rod on my 1st finger. For all day casting, a neutrally balanced rod does make a world of difference in fatigue obviously you would want to build the rod as lightly as possible to avoid being tip heavy.

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 14, 2021 09:12AM

Mo Yang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't fish with your type of setup but have a
> few thoughts.
>
> 1. If you want maximum casting distance, perhaps
> you can consider Gliss line. That is one of the
> longest casting line I know of in a spinning reel.
> 8 lbs test is equal in diameter to 2 lbs japanese
> Fluoro.
>
> 2. Given your lb test and braid, I believe that
> any reel from 1000 up would be large enough. Drag
> smoothness is more than adequate with 1000 and up
> as many fish 2 lbs test and routinely land trout
> up to 10 lbs in my area. If 1000 is good enough
> for 2 lbs, I would venture that it would be smooth
> enough for 6-10 lbs.
>
> 3. As to tip heavy, it also depends on how you
> hold your rod and reel. I place the reel foot
> between my pinky and ring finger, and that does
> wonders in balancing out a tip heavy rod on my 1st
> finger. For all day casting, a neutrally balanced
> rod does make a world of difference in fatigue
> obviously you would want to build the rod as
> lightly as possible to avoid being tip heavy.

I will check out the gliss line. I have seen it mentioned before.

I am not sure how I hold the rod/reel. I have used quickfire reels for decades. And you hold the reel where your index finger can reach the trigger. Unfortunately Shimano now only makes quickfire reels for under $20.

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 14, 2021 10:17AM

Timf1981 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First time builder. Overwhelmed with choices.
> I do know I want a .....
> Spinning rod
> Med-light
> Fast or extra fast action.
> 6'10" up to 7'6"
> 1/8 oz. popper. Mostly teased,
> Braid 6 to 10 lbs.
> 2 or 3 or 4 pc.
> Shortish handle . About 9 inches
>
> This rod will be strictly for fishing smallmouth
> bass from a canoe with a 1/8oz. popper.
> 10hrs per day on the water. For week long fishing
> trip.
> CASTING DISTANCE IS TOP PRIORITY when casting a
> 1/8 oz. popper. We ave been doing this for 30
> years so we have become pretty darn accurate
>
> I own a 7ft St Croix Triumph TRS70MLF2 1/8 to
> 1/2oz. And have no issues with it. Maybe a little
> tip soft/whippy.
> But I have always wanted to build something.
> I know quality of blanks differ greatly. But I
> don’t know how the rods I listed below compare
> to one another.
> And I don’t want something so light that it can
> be fragile.
> My rods do week long canoe trips. I am more than
> willing to look at something from another
> manufacturer.
>
> Here are some rod blanks I have found at Mud Hole.
>
> 2 piece
> SJ9000-2 MHX 7’6 ML-F 1/16 -3/8oz. $90 maybe my
> favorite
> SJ842-2 MHX 7’0 ML-F 1/8-1/4 oz.$66
> 3 piece
> TR842-3 MHX 7’O ML-F 1/8-1/2 oz.$95
> TR902-3 MHX 7’6 ML-F 1/8-1/2 oz. $113
>
> Here are two from Batson catalog
> Revelation RX7 2 piece
> REVS72ML-2SB 7’2 ML-F 1/8-3/8oz. Cost $ ???
> REVS76ML-2SB. 7’6 ML-F 1/8-3/8oz. Cost $ ???
> I believe I held a one piece blank, REVS68ML-SB
> and the tip to more pressure to bend and was less
> wiggly then my St Croix
>
> Here are some totally built rods from St Croix.
> If I could find these blanks. That would be
> awesome.
> AVS70MLXF2. 7’0. ML-XF 1/8-3/8 oz. $230 handle#4
>
> AVS760MLXF2. 7’6. ML-XF 1/8-3/8 oz. $220
> handle#4 favorite blank if I can find it. Also mud
> hole SJ9000-2 7’6
> ATS70MLF3. 7’0 ML-F. 1/8-1/2oz. $260 3
> piece
> TSR66MLF4. 6’6 MLF 1/8-1/2oz. $150 4 piece
>
> I have additional question how much spool size(lip
> diameter) affects casting distance. And how much
> spool size affects drag smoothness.
>
> Will the larger spool LIP DIAMETER give me greater
> casting distance with 6 to 10# braid ?
>
> Will larger spool diameter give me a smoother drag
> when fighting 2-4 lbs smallies?
>
> Also inches of line per crank is a consideration.
>
> Most fish are caught within 5 ft of shore. So we
> spend a lot of time reeling in fast for the next
> cast.
> For forever I have been using Shimano reels with
> quickfire. Inexpensive, heavy reels.
> I will be buying a Daiwa Tatula LT . Or maybe two.
> But I haven't decided on size. No matter which
> size I choose. I will be significantly reducing
> reel weight from what I have used in the past.
> Tatula LT
> 4000= 7.4oz,26.4# drag and 39.8 inches per crank.
> 3000=6.3oz, 22# drag and 36.8in..
> 2500=6.3oz, 22# drag and 34.5 in.
> 2000= 5.8 oz, 11#and 32in
> 1000=5.8 oz, 11# drag. And 30.5inches
> I have been told the 2000 just has just a deeper
> spool than the 1000. But I am guessing the 2000
> spool has a greater diameter because its inches
> per crank is more than the 1000.
> The new Shimano Vanford VFC2000 Is 5.3oz.7# drag
> and 32in per crank. But has no anti reverse switch
> that the Tatula LT has. But I would consider it
> because of its very light weight.
>
>
> Don't be shy to give advice on guides or handles
> or anything else. Once again, casting distance is
> a priority.
> And I HATE TIP WRAP.
> I read somewhere rod guides can help prevent.
> I dont think I would notice a guide that wasn't
> the best when reeling in a fish if it was the best
> guide for casting distance. But obviously don't
> want an eye the braid will cut into the guide.
>
> Power Pro Super Slick V2 and Berkly 9x braided
> lines are my current plan.
> 57 ¾ years old. budget. $100 -$220ish
> Would like to save weight were possible without
> going crazy. I would also like to paint the blank.
> Maybe sparkles? Yellow? Lime Green?. Sparkly
> Porsche green.
> I have a good mechanical ability . And like to be
> a little creative.
> Let me know if you need any more info.
>
> Minneapolis Minnesota area
> THANKS…
> Ps.
> Besides the rod blank. What can I expect to pay
> for the rest of the parts?
> And what can I expect to pay for building
> materials for a few rods?

A little more explanation of the type of fishing this rod will be for.
Northern Minnesota/ southern Canada. No weeds, all rocks and bolders.
We fish for spawning Smallmouth bass. They nest right next to boulders and brush lined shoreline in 2-3 feet of water.
Because of the tanic acid turning the water brown. Nests can not be seen. We fish with barbless hooks in areas with high bass population and low fishing pressure. On 90% of the shoreline. You go out 12 feet from shore and its 10 ft deep.

This rod will be used exclusively for casting a 1/8 oz. Teeny pop R popper. Shhhhhh don't tell anyone our secret weapon.
F11 Rapala was always my go to. Then a black and silver Rebel very shallow crankbait.
Then one year my brother shows up with teeny pop R. For half a day he out fished me 5 to 1.
Luckily he had a few extras:)

We cast behind rocks and in pockets along the shore. Let it sit. Twitch it, wiggle it. Maybe than give it a big pop. Because of the quickly dropping water depths . We are quickly out of the fish zone. Than the Lure must be quickly reeled in 30 ft for the next cast.

As a couple have mentioned. A fly rod would be a perfect fit. And I totally agree. But just not my thing. Shoulder issues and 2 rookie fly rod fisherman in a canoe would be a disasters.

The reason for a short 9 inch handle is if it is longer it hits life jacket. Remember, sitting in canoe. (63 deg water temps and in a wilderness area. The jacket is staying on)

As for the reel weight and probable 7'6 rod for max casting distance. Here are pros and cons of a 4000 reel compared to a 1 or 2000 reel. Daiwa Tatula LT.

4000 reel. 20000. 3000
7.4 oz. 5.8 oz. 6.3 oz.
40 in/crank. 32 in/ crank. 37 in/crank

4000 reel larger diameter gives theoretical greater casting distance and smoother drag due to larger drag discs and the greater distance from spool rod to edge of spool giving more leverage.

4000 is more bulky but only 1.6 oz heavier than 2000.
And remember. I am coming from using a 12.5 oz reel for decades.


Leader question.
Each trip we get the popper cut of multiple times by little northerns.
What weight and leader material do you recommend.
Even 12 lb power pro can be cut by these little guys. Sometimes after the hook is set. We see our line floating in the air and feeling as if there never was a Lure on the end of the line.

I am currently leaning toward a MHX rod blank ML-F 7'6

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: January 14, 2021 04:49PM

Concerning leader material. You're fishing a topwater lure so you're going to have to use a line that floats. That leaves braid, or a nylon or co polymer mono filament as your only choices. Personally I'd stick with braid and put up with the bite offs. It's suppleness is going to be needed for proper bait action. Heavier test leader is going to kill your bait's action. That, and braid is going to be just as or even more resistant to bite offs as any of the heavier nylon or co polymer lines that you could use.

As disheartening as it may be (I hate knowing a fish is swimming around with one of my baits stuck god knows where in it) bite offs are something you have to deal with when you're fishing toothy fish infested waters.

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 14, 2021 06:04PM

Tim, it might chase off the smallmouths, but you could try some sevenstrand as a leader. It is a braided cable. The lowest pound test has a diameter about like 4# mono. Sort of a bronze color. You can tie knots with it, like a bowline.

Otherwise I'd suggest a fluro leader and re-tying a lot.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 15, 2021 02:07PM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Concerning leader material. You're fishing a
> topwater lure so you're going to have to use a
> line that floats. That leaves braid, or a nylon or
> co polymer mono filament as your only choices.
> Personally I'd stick with braid and put up with
> the bite offs. It's suppleness is going to be
> needed for proper bait action. Heavier test leader
> is going to kill your bait's action. That, and
> braid is going to be just as or even more
> resistant to bite offs as any of the heavier nylon
> or co polymer lines that you could use.
>
> As disheartening as it may be (I hate knowing a
> fish is swimming around with one of my baits stuck
> god knows where in it) bite offs are something you
> have to deal with when you're fishing toothy fish
> infested waters.

Most of the poppers that get cut off. Can be spotted after the bubble pop.
And because we grind the barbs off. A few can be spotted after a few jumps.
One morning when the fish were hitting everything. My brother lost a Lure to a fish. A few minutes later. His buddy hooks a fish. The fish gets off right at the canoe . But retrieved from the fish's moth was my brother's Lure:)
Thanks for the input.

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Re: Overwhelmed Newbie rod builder. Need advice
Posted by: Timf1981 (---.mpls.qwest.net)
Date: January 15, 2021 02:11PM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Concerning leader material. You're fishing a
> topwater lure so you're going to have to use a
> line that floats. That leaves braid, or a nylon or
> co polymer mono filament as your only choices.
> Personally I'd stick with braid and put up with
> the bite offs. It's suppleness is going to be
> needed for proper bait action. Heavier test leader
> is going to kill your bait's action. That, and
> braid is going to be just as or even more
> resistant to bite offs as any of the heavier nylon
> or co polymer lines that you could use.
>
> As disheartening as it may be (I hate knowing a
> fish is swimming around with one of my baits stuck
> god knows where in it) bite offs are something you
> have to deal with when you're fishing toothy fish
> infested waters.

Most of the poppers that get cut off. Can be spotted after the bubble pop.
And because we grind the barbs off. A few can be spotted after a few jumps.
One morning when the fish were hitting everything. My brother lost a Lure to a fish. A few minutes later. His buddy hooks a fish. The fish gets off right at the canoe . But retrieved from the fish's moth was my brother's Lure:)
Thanks for the input.

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