Touché Mr. Erickson.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Does the diameter of the reel spool used on a spinning rod influence the ideal spacing of the stripping guide on a blank?

We need a "like" button.

Mike: Maybe so. Who's "We"?

We = this forum. To show our endorsement of the posts. I'm sure that it has been considered and rejected, most likely for good reasons, but it would be nice to show appreciation and agreement of certain posts.

I continue to enjoy and learn from the tangent replies to this topic; but one in particular perplexes me. Replying to a “coefficient of friction” reply, Tom stated,” The hardness or "slickness" of the guide rings would have no measurable effect on casting distance. Friction requires more than just two surfaces in contact - it also involves the amount of pressure forcing the two surfaces against each other. Casting does not product the type of force that would bring this into practical play.”
I certainly agree that friction is caused by not simply two surfaces in contact with each other but, more importantly, the amount of force between the two. Fishing line which has been tamed/controlled and is passing through the runners in basically a straight path (in a well designed guide train) will be slowed (friction) by the rings minimally at best as the line barely touches the guide ring. But looking at the reduction guides, the stripper in particular, the much larger chaotic coils (especially compared to the smaller KR rings) coming off the spinning spool must be reduced significantly to pass through the ring. That reduction creates the line to “bunch-up” in front of the ring and consequently forces it to bend around the surface of the ring causing much more constant contact surface area and inherent force which I see as induced/additional friction; Fuji’s KR video shows this quite well. The video explained the benefit of controlling/reducing the coils off the spool as soon as possible but only to a certain point beyond which smaller rings were found to be detrimental to the overall line flow (too much friction?). Fuji also experienced that runners too small were detrimental as well, but that is a different subject.
Are smoother and smoother guide rings only beneficial when the rod is bent 90* from a trophy fish applying max load to the blank? Is any reduction in line friction beneficial at all to casting distance? Please enlighten, Tom; we are all here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

"Are smoother and smoother guide rings only beneficial when the rod is bent 90* from a trophy fish applying max load to the blank?"

Only might be a little strong but I agree with your sentiment. It isn't just smoothness. Hardness and heat dissipation are key factors. Of course you need a fish that runs fast and strong enough. In the past when materials weren't as good roller guides were needed.

"Is any reduction in line friction beneficial at all to casting distance?"

I think it is fair to say it helps. However most any thing you can buy today is already quite good, especially if it is a ceramic insert.

I await the thoughts of others on the matter.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russell,
Thank you for another reply. I agree with your comments, especially heat dissipation while fighting large, powerful fish under heavy drag settings. However, it seems as though you prefer ceramic ring guides over rollers; coming from Florida, you must build quite a few heavy saltwater rods so I am interested in your comments. It seems to me the best way to ELIMINATE heat is to employ rollers, at least for 50lb + builds. But as Tom mentioned in his “Stand-Up Rods” article in RodMaker magazine, “Rollers that are allowed to get dirty, corroded or otherwise to the point where the rollers do not turn freely, are about the worst thing you can have on a rod”. I could not agree more! Although rollers do require a bit of maintenance, I feel it is a small price to pay for the ultimate in overall line preservation.
That being said and staying with the original theme of this post concerning casting distance, I would certainly think “slicker” guides, and the stripper in particular, would produce a noticeable difference. I do not have any facts, hence my interest and quest for information.
Mark T.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Fuji introduced KR Concept as a reduction train used for braided line. No mention of it being a "micro" or mono theory, so testing it with mono was a contradiction of the original concept as it was defined. Also, the size 16 stripper is far more "touchy" than the 20. We don't recommend a 16 unless you are going below 10lb braid or below 6lb mono. Even then you can get a stiff or cold mono that makes you wish you had the 20. Builders have been breaking with the original theory since KR was introduced and they have had great luck doing it. Big surf rods are an example. But I think it bears repeating that KR was never meant for stiffer lines. In fact, COF was. So the small difference is not surprising. Cast 15lb mono through a COF and 15lb braid thru a KR train with a 20 stripper (what each was designed for) and see if there is a difference. You're driving a square peg into a round hole.

Certainly not speaking for Tom, but I can give my thoughts on your question Mark. As you said, two different surfaces touching each other create friction. How much friction is created is going to depend on how strongly those two edges are coming in contact. The coils coming off of a spinning reel, while moving rather quickly. aren't exerting that much pressure because ss the line is being pulled off the spool, the coils are being elongated, and they're shrinking in diameter as they travel towards the stripper guide. Stiffer lines will carry the diameter of the coils closer to the stripper, but they're still shrinking in diameter. Also, even fluorocarbon lines aren't so stiff that they won't collapse on themselves when external pressure (passing through a guide ring) is exerted on the coils. So the coils are shrinking, and they're not strong structurally. If they were strong structurally, they would create a lot more friction as they pass through the guide.

I will be interested to see if Tom somewhat agrees with my postulation.

As far as the friction while fighting a fish goes. I would think friction would be minimal if simply trying to pull a fish off of the bottom, Different story if a fish starts running, or you're reeling in a fish with the rod under load. There is a great amount of pressure, and moving line.

Jim, you have made my day. I for quite a while now have simply used the KLH 20-10-5.5M reduction train regardless of what reel or line (braid, always 20 lb. or less-some of the newer 20's cast like 10's) because I figured the weight difference is insignificant and the 20 gives versatility not offered by the 16-8-5.5 or whatever the last guide is. The 20-10-5.5 always works; I don't even bother to test cast any more.

It is my opinion that we builders often "over-think" things, agonizing over insignificant differences and often ignoring the "big stuff." But I guess that is a subject for another great string of posts, like this one has turned out to be.

As I have said numerous times. I use fluorocarbon line as the main line on spinning gear, actually can't stand braid on spinning gear, but that's just me. Anyhow, I use the 20,10, 5.5 reduction train with up to 10# Tatsu fluorocarbon, and it works beautifully. Far far better than on any of the factory rods I used to have that had COF guide trains. I use all 3000 series Shimano reels on my spinning rods, but because of this thread, on my next spinning rod build, I am going to input a 4000 size reel and use that reduction train to see if I get any improvement.

KR may have been invented for braided lines, but it works than a COF guide train with any kind of line in the sizes of line that I use. I will never use a different guide train on any spinning rod I build.

Seeing is believing, and I'm a believer.

I as many of you know, I use the KR 20H based reduction train for most of my freshwater and inshore spinning rods. However, I do think the 16H based reduction train really works great for UL up to M powered rods when using small (500, 1000, 2000) reels with light braid and even with very light mono or fluorocarbon line. I'm just the opposite from David and Mark, I just don't like mono or fluorocarbon with a spinning or casting reels, and rarely use it, but that's just me.
Norm

Fishing with artificial baits/lures is all about the line used not so much the rod and reel..when i started we only had glass rods and not much sensetivity unless we used braided line like gudebrod,s dacron line..then the super lines came out with their smaller diameters and changed it all..we used a leader on the dacron to decrease vivibility of the line, even the super lines..then i started using thinner super lines..lines 10# and less without mono leaders and still caught fish..conclusion: it doesn,t matter if the fish sees the line..what matters is line diameter..thicker and stiffer line snubs the lures action more or less to some degree..when you go to a finer line to reduce line visibility your actuall allowing the lure to wiggle/vibrate a little more which makes it more attractive to the fish..i think because braided lines are thinner and more limp that they allow more action for cranking lures and spinner baits/ more skirt vibbration..the fish are looking at the lure and it,s action not the line which is an action killer..

Jim, as always, thank you for your informative/interesting reply. For my trout adventures, I typically use 4lb mono/floro, sometimes drop to 2lb and rarely use 6lb or greater; the KL-16H stripper has always performed flawlessly. From the gracious replies, it seems stepping-up to a size 20 stripper would be required for anything larger.
Thank you to all the responders as well.
Simply due to the replies to this topic, I may just try braid next season in the Sierra; what is the smallest test braid? While I use 10lb braid for my pull-through loops, how much smaller does it come? (I am asking before searching).

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

"However, it seems as though you prefer ceramic ring guides over rollers; coming from Florida, you must build quite a few heavy saltwater rods so I am interested in your comments."

Mark, most of our pelagic fish down here are less than 100 pounds. The majority of my fishing gear is in the 12 to 20 pound class. What our fish lack in size they make up for in speed. I’d say a reasonable estimate is in the 40-70 MPH range. In many ways I feel improvements in drags, mono line, and ringed guides are even more important as one moves down in line class relative to the fish size. I'd say the light tackle guy is fishing much closer to the limits of his gear. I'm one who really needs to know if that 15-30# inshore SC3 blank can dead lift 30 pounds at a 30 degree incline:) I do have a 30# trolling outfit and I will break out the 40# gear for grouper fishing.

I can’t really comment on roller guides. I have no need for them as I won’t target billfish or sharks.

These days I'm doing more fresh water fishing. I have just started using braid. It wasn't allowed on the long range boats down here (may be now though).

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Mark, I think you are spot-on for your particular situation. I would stick with fluoro and I would stay with the 16. No need for extra ID with 4lb line. I was speaking of the "concepts" that guide the vast majority of builders who "get it".

In my experience, 15lb braid, a 3000 Series reel and a KL20H stripper on a hi-mod blank is a match made in heaven. Maybe Tom is right but I can tell you from talking to perhaps thousands of builders who have built their first KR Concept rod that the quoted 1% seems more like 15-20% to the vast majority who build one. Beyond everything else, a well built KR spinner is an absolute pleasure to fish regardless of distance. There's so much more to it.

Mark, I think you are spot-on for your particular situation. I would stick with fluoro and I would stay with the 16. No need for extra ID with 4lb line. I was speaking of the "concepts" that guide the vast majority of builders who "get it".

In my experience, 15lb braid, a 3000 Series reel and a KL20H stripper on a hi-mod blank is a match made in heaven. Maybe Tom is right but I can tell you from talking to perhaps thousands of builders who have built their first KR Concept rod that the quoted 1% seems more like 15-20% to the vast majority who build one. Beyond everything else, a well built KR spinner is an absolute pleasure to fish regardless of distance. There's so much more to it.

Thank you to all for the continuation of replies.
Jim, it is comforting to know you concur with my UL KL-16H reduction train. I may be uncertain what the percentages you referred to actually reflect, But EVERY SINGLE PERSON I HAVE BUILT A KR CONCEPT ROD FOR HAS BEEN BLOWN-AWAY WITH ITS PERFORMANCE!!! While I most heartedly agree a KR rod is “an absolute pleasure to fish”, the additional casting distance is a bonus; after all, we all know the fish are always 5ft further than we can cast LOL. None the less, I have a virtually brand new COF rod for you if interested LOL. Seriously now, I sincerely thank you, Anglers Resource and Fuji for your unyielding commitments to the fishing world in general and rod building in particular.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark, 4# fluoro is about .007" in diameter and 4# Hitena Silky braid is .001"..i think that is Hitena,s smallest...