Tom, I will certainly take your word for it that the difference between a NGC and KR rod will be minimal; I have had enough testing and reporting for awhile.
Norman, thank you for replying with your respected veteran knowledge, experience and insight; your comments are always cherished by any and all. I know you prefer CF rods, braid and Minimas for your UL-L builds and who can blame you; so do the vast majority of anglers and builders; it really is about personal preference; to each his own. I certainly agree with your statement “A KR Concept will improve performance no matter the rod or line used”. Apparently, the results of this test of mine has proven to parallel your findings as well.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

The next battle is between the microwave system and the KR concept. If this has already been done, please point me in the right direction to see the results. I am willing to do the testing. Does anyone know the guide trains of each to form a fair comparison?

Ed,
Consider consulting Norman Miller prior to spending the time, effort and money.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Doesn,t Anglers resource suggest using braid to get the most from the KR system..i think braid brings the most from any system you use..i have tinkered with some really odd looking guide set-ups..they all worked quite well with braided line but not so well with the monos, too stiff and thick..

lol Mark ..... I have a problem turning the fingers off when a topic really interests me. But I'm working on it. lol

As far as what Tom said about the difference between a good NGC guide train and a KR guide train being absolutely minimal goes .... like you, I will take his word for it as far as casting performance probably goes, but based on the use of the NGC software on the Angler's resource page, it sure doesn't look like an NGC guide train would be anywhere near as light as a KR concept guide train for the same rod and reel would be.

Tom? Would you agree with that?

No I wouldn't. The weight that is important is on the upper 1/2 to 1/3rd of the rod and in either case you'd most likely be using the same guides by that point.

At the end of the day, a given rod can only cast a given weight so far. Once you arrive at a very good, modern guide system, you aren't likely to find a smidgeon's difference between them. I know a few companies that have tested each system, as well as can be done in any such test involving human interaction, and the difference between guide systems on the same rod casting the same weight all fall within 1%.

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Lines of different diameters, different flexibility, different finishes, and lines used in different temperatures will perform differently using the same guide train. Every difference makes a difference. Mark's experiment does a fine job nailing down the facts in a specific situation, but line diameters and temperatures vary widely and it's unlikely "one size fits all".

The super lines come close Phil..lol.

Ben: Today advertising weasels into just about every human product, and advertising shuns science and proof like a duck's back sheds water. How else could parity products be sold at profit margins which vary by 100% or more? When was the last time you saw an unbiased (double-blind) test comparing two products? Don't hold your breath waiting for a scientific, double blind performance comparison of super braids or guide trains.

Phil, i don,t wait for anybody to do anything..i do my own comparisons in my own way..lol.

Mark, thanks for the good work and taking the time to do it. It's always worth doing these things to convince yourself.

Keeping track of where the choker or first of the low profile guides gives the following:

NGC 27x (Reel Quantum Catalyst 10 PTIa) with a spool diameter of 1.477" puts the choker effectively at 39 7/8" (39.879").

KR places the choker at 38" and typically calls for 3 guides in the reduction train, though I tend to use a match frame 16mm and match frame 8mm when I set up this style of guide train.

MW places the first small guide at 39 7/8".

All three systems involve taking the line to the blank in a straight line and then another straight line to the tip. All three systems do a great job of reducing weight added near the tip of the rod compared to COF.

Any weight difference between KR and NGC is going to come in the reduction train. With NGC 27x, for reels this size, I tend to use only 2 guides in the reduction train Y-frame 20 mm (or match frame 16 mm) and Y-frame 10 mm (or match frame 8 mm). KR tends to call for 3 guides in the reduction train, which can swing either system ahead in weight savings based on number of guides, frame style, and insert material.

With longer rods, KR will push the choker out a few inches, so what all this tells me is that if you put that choker in the range of 38"-42", you are likely in pretty good shape for a spinning rod up to 7'-7'6" and reel sizes up to 4000. NGC paved the way, and Tom's 27x spacing got the ball rolling for ease of use. The success of MW and KR guide trains show that range for the choker is very effective for a variety of builds.

Ben, you are correct; the KR Concept was designed around the use of braid, especially for the higher pound test lines. However, many concur 2lb or 4lb mono/fluoro is so thin and consequently/inherently/relatively limp to make a minimal if any difference; 10lb is a different story. The pristine, high elevation lakes and streams of the Eastern Sierra are so clear it is not uncommon to see the bottom 60ft down! I need as much stealth as possible hence my using fluoro coated mono; yes, I could use braid with a 10ft fluoro leader but I just do not bother; mono/fluoro has served me well for almost 50 years. I certainly do not doubt braid may produce a better “feeling”, more sensitive rod but I have already admitted to possibly being a bit more numb than other anglers. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it! Inversely, I always use braid for saltwater, even light in-shore fishing but find it can become annoying having to tie on new leader rather than simply retying a hook or lure to the main line.
As stated in my original post, my objective was to discover the casting difference between COF and KR by eliminating as many variables while including as many constants to produce the fairest test possible; I am comfortable I accomplished that using the 4lb P-Line Floroclear; it was a constant of the equation, not a variable. Although lines of different construction, diameter, flexibility, finishes, taste, smell, sound used at different temperatures may perform differently, that is for someone else on which to test and report; I am curious.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Joe, Thank you for your input as well; informative and interesting.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Hi Mark..from what i have read mixed in with my experience, fish can see all lines at any water color especially clear water..thus i have quit tying leaders to braid..i go straight braid..i,m fishing for bass or panfish not trout..bass are not too line shy and i.m using 10# or less..i will on occasion change the spool and go down to 4# or even !# and see a difference in the catch but i don,t often have to..i quit playing with leaders too..lol. i would not be surprised if you used some of Hitena,s 1# braid the trout wouldn,t fear it..just a thought..you would gain more sensetivity, a lot more since your using glass rods which i do too..just a thought..i love the 1# line mostly for crappies and gills on an ultralight..

Ben, Your last post was an enjoyable read (certainly not to say your others are not). Funny thing is I have tied a hook and bait directly to 50lb braid while calico fishing and caught fish; maybe not quite as many as with leader, but caught fish none the less. So maybe bass, weather fresh or saltwater, are totally line-numb. My fishing buddies always tease me of only catching the blind fish. That being said, my experience with trout, especially wild trout, is they freak-out from flatulence 500ft away; that may be a stretch but trout are notoriously skittish and leery. In the waters I frequent in the Eastern Sierra, simply dropping from 4lb to 2lb test line can, and have, made a huge difference in fish counts. To be honest, I have never fished with someone up there who was using braid so maybe my admittedly biased opinion has blinded me; I will keep it in mind when going back up there next season. None the less, let the books reflect I am a doubting-Thomas.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

It was just a thought Mark..lol. i have read stories about mountain or head water.trout having less food available and were agressive and eager feeders..i don,t know..your trout don,t sound too eager..lol..maybe they have enough insects to be picky eaters..

The observed superior casting distance by one brand of guides must have a physical cause. The suspects I can imagine are the guide placement distances, or the size of the guides, or the coefficient of friction of the guide rings. The physical difference(s) between these two guide trains would be more informative than their different brand names.

Phil,
Thanks for your reply. As stated in the original post, both sets of guides were Fuji, not different “brands”; KR = KL-H reduction followed by KB and KT runners with a LG tiptop; COF = all LVs with a LG tip top. The “guide placement distances” are immaterial as such would be different on every blank to which they were mounted; both guide trains employed the 2-line static load test for guide placement. The sizes of the guides were given in the original post. As for “coefficient of friction of the guide rings”; are you serious? What do you expect from me? As stated in the original post, both guide trains sported Alconite rings to eliminate that variable = both exhibited an identical X amount coefficient of friction which is all that matters. None the less, I am certain ALL of us would be interested to learn your findings of the coefficient of friction of different guides. Allow me to apologize for assuming all viewers of this topic were familiar with the “brand names” KR Concept and COF; but then, those unfamiliar with the two would have probably been uninterested in the test, let alone the results. At the risk of sounding rude, I think you totally missed the point of this test.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

The hardness or "slickness" of the guide rings would have no measurable effect on casting distance. Friction requires more than just two surfaces in contact - it also involves the amount of pressure forcing the two surfaces against each other. Casting does not product the type of force that would bring this into practical play.

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Inertia is the difference between the guide trains. By reducing inertia, the blank is able to react and recover more quickly and transfer energy more efficiently to the load being cast.

It's the same reason that single foot guides have become favorable over double foot guides in most freshwater and a lot of light saltwater applications, the same reason that rods with micro guides cast as far or further than rods with conventionally sized guides.