I have decided to build a COF rod to be used as a performance comparison to a KR Concept rod; I am anxious to learn just how much better modern rods perform with their new technology than the rods of the past (1970s). To make the comparison as fair and precise as possible, I will be using a vintage, FG Conolon blank (#155) as I have already built a number of KR rods on the “same” #155 blanks. Being a Fuji proponent, the KR rods employed KL-H (16 stripper), KB, KT Alconite guides and, although not precisely period-correct, the COF guides will be LV Alconite, size 25 evenly stepped down to a 6. If I am going to build an old-school rod, an old-school reel seat seems appropriate and desired.
Do any of you veterans have a proper vintage seat for this UL to L build? While NOS is preferred, I realize that is asking a lot and a used seat in good condition would be OK. I am hoping to find a light vintage seat (or is that an oxymoron) since the SV guides will be relatively heavy compared to KRs.
Thank you for your time, concern and reply.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Although you probably already figured it out, this is a spinning seat; please excuse the novice omittense.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Google Varmac reel seat, lots of options.

Hello Mark.

Spencer X2

Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Would not any simple, pipe seat, like the current Fuji DPSM do the job? All it does is hold the reel. Or do a Tennessee, like we did 50 years ago. I don't think the seat is a significant part of the equation if the objective is to differentiate between guide trains.

hi Mark...that sounds like an interesting study..the type line would be a major factor..if you use mono for your comparison, the COF may come out on top but if you use braid the KR concept will rule but COF may make a better show than it did with the mono..

Spencer & Robert,
While I am familiar with the Varmac seats and realize they were very popular and widely used back then, were they the only game in town?
Michael,
DPSD are my go-to seat when a pipe seat is requested. With this vintage guide train mounted on a vintage rod, I feel a vintage seat is appropriate. I am a huge proponent of a Tennessee handle, I even fabricate my own tapered slip rings from woven CF/Kevlar sleeving, all my personal lighter rods employ the benefits of a TH, and I already have two matching Conolon 155s THs. I would simply prefer to produce a rod that resembles a common COF rod from the 1970s.
Ben,
You brought up a good point concerning line type. For my UL trout setups, I typically use 4lb P-line Floroclear, a mono/fluorocarbon hybrid. While I am uncertain if fluorocarbon line was available in the 70s, the Floroclear is simply mono coated with fluorocarbon so it responds very similar to mono and well suited, as you mentioned, for this test with a COF guide train. While the KR Concept was designed for the limpness of braid, 4lb Floroclear is inherently limp and works extremely well with KR set-ups.
It is quite certain this vintage style COF rod I am about to build will not become my go-to rod; that is not the point. It is simply to compare COF to KR guide trains on two “identical” blanks to make the comparison as fair and equal as possible. I suspect the KR rod will be substantially better, especially in casting distance but also, if not to a lesser degree, fighting ability.
I just thought of something; did rod builders use a static load test for guide placement back in the 70s? From my observations, the earlier rods seem to employ fewer guides which leads me to believe the guides were installed simply where they “looked good” or seemed to be needed.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark, i don,t recallseeing many UL rods back then with ceramic rings, just mostly all wire..the few rods with ceramic seemed to have the life choked out of them, wire was lighter..your right in that fewer guides were used in the COF system, maybe just four or five guides but UL rods were much shorter than today's UL rods..i can,t wait to see your test results..i think COF is going to surprise a lot of people, especially if you use wire guides..

Ben,
You are probably correct in that most guides back then were wire. The few ceramic ringed guides undoubtedly were mounted in shock rings too boot. Additionally, most guide were probably double foot as well. While I do have one of these Conolon #155 mounted with KR style Minima M and F guides, I am not really satisfied with the wire guide selection available for this application. I am confident the Fuji LV Alconite guides in a COF arrangement will provide an equal test against the KR Concept set of KL-H, KB, KT Alconite guides. Assuming all things being equal, I cannot see where a wire guide or Alconite guide would favor one side or the other. None the less, it is good to know I have at least one person interested in my “Test of the Ages”. Thanks!
I am still very interested to learn how builders determined guide placement back in the 70s!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

"Test of the Ages", good name..only us old timers can make sense of it..lol..i read somewhere that modern day ceramic guides are actually lighter than the steel wire guides, so maybe the edge goes to COF with alconites..about guide placement..as i recall it looked similar to todays set up..guides were closer at the tip and further apart at the butt..i think builder back then probably had an understanding of guides and distibution of loads equal to todays builder..at least it looks like they did..i started with Hertser kits in the sixties and later just copied from rods in tackle shops and latter when Tom,s book came out i got a better understanding of what was going on..i,m sure you,ll get more ideas on that question..yes,this looks like an interesting project..

I was just recommending Varmac because it's still pretty readily available with some color options and skeleton options also for custom work. There should be some Allen reel seats around probably that were used on Phillipson and other rods, and I'm sure others.

For vintage stuff online take a look at Rick's Rods website. He has vintage guides that are not listed, might have to call.

Mark,
A guide is a guide is a guide. Some are big, some are small. Some are heavy, some are light.

But, if you compare a rod from 1970 - to a rod from 2020 -- by and large, I believe that the universal difference between the two rods will be the rod blank.

i.e. if you use 4 lb mono on each rod and use a 1970 rod built on a 1970 rod blank and then build the identical rod, using the identical guides and reel seat that you use on the 1970 blank, but build it on a contemporary 2020 ultra light blank - the difference will be like night and day.

i.e. I really don't think that the guides will play a huge difference in either casting or fighting a fish but the different blank - will make the overall experience much much better with the 2020 blank.

However, I will await your test results.

I suspect that you will find the 4 lb fluorocarbon line that you mention, is likely stiffer than a typical 4 lb mono with a .005 line diameter. But, maybe not. It would be interesting to compare the two lines on the same rod to be sure.

If a 1970s ultra light rod that is 6 feet long uses 4 guides and a 2020 6 foot ultra light guide uses 7 guides, one might find that the casting distance is identical and the fish fighting ability of each is adequate to do the job. Yes, there will be bigger gaps in the loaded rod when fighting a fish, but at the end of the day - you will still be able to bring the fish to the boat.

Summary - I am guessing that the two rods will both put fish in the boat. But, they will do it in a slightly different fashion.

When I was in college in the late 60s - I had a 6'6" rod that I kept in the trunk of my car and all that I can say is that it put a lot of fish in the bag to end up on the stove of a newly married college couple.

Have a great holiday.

Good luck on your experiment.

Hello Mark.

Just take your rod number "FG Conolon blank (#155) " and put it into Google and you will get a good look of the rod in question, the seat on that rod was a red aluminum seat.

[berinsontackle.com]


Good Luck

Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Mark, If you are willing to pay postage I will send you an assortment of guides and seats in that era which are just sitting around collecting dust. Happy thanksgiving!

Dennis J. Danku
(Sayreville,NJ)

Thanks for the link Bob..looking at the picture of the rod i couldn,t see how the guides could stay attached to the rod without epoxy..i saw the thread with i guess some varnish on it but we all know you have to have epoxy saturated wraps..sorry, just a little sarcasm but doesn,t that rod look lean and mean..you bet it is..lol..except for those guides..lol.

To all,
Thank you for taking the time to afford your wisdom, support and suggestions. While having to wait until Monday to place my order with Anglers Warehouse, I will re-evaluate all the replies. After the COF rod is built and compared to the KR rod, I will post my findings if anyone is interested (beside just Ben).
Dennis, a special and gracious thanks to you for your generous offer; unless I change my mind over the weekend, I will probably go with the LV Alconite guides and a Varmac seat.
Again, thanks to all for their support and help which I have become accustomed to on this site.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.