To begin I’m mostly a bass fisherman.

How do you guys feel guides impact a finished rod? Now I’m not talking poor guide spacing, guides to large, etc. that will definitely impact a rod. I’m more looking for insight on materials. I’m just a novice builder only have the time to build for myself and keep things basic and clean. In all my builds I’ve always used Fuji SS alconites and recently started using the RV stripper in my builds. I recently got 2 point blank blanks and was wondering if the jump to TiSic guides is worth the extra expense over alconites? Now I do have a NFC HM blank that has alconites great rod but can it be that much better with TiSic

I own factory rods with TiSic, recoil, and AGS guides. All those rods are phenomenal performers that come at a price. I always wondered if the guides have that much impact.

IMO - guide inserts (rings) don't make much difference re performance.
SS guides will discolor (rust) over time in salt water. So I prefer Titanium or NiTi as in REC recoils.
But what does make a huge difference - IMO - is the weight of guides as they move to the tip. That's why I use REC Recoils - and the REC Recoil tip-top.
Herb
CTS Rep

I agree for the most part with Herb that ring material is not a big thing these days when most all of them work well. Maybe for salt go SIC where heat from a long run might get into the equation. For salt TI is right if you want to afford it, but quality SS guides will work fine if you always rinse and dry after every day on the water.

The issue of guide weight is the next consideration. For the guides that are near the butt, like the first few casting guides and the reduction train of any "fast reduction" set, weight is not a big issue on any rod.

BUT, and this is a big BUT, for the guides out on the rod it is very important for some techniques, like finesse, or blades, or ripping, to have the lightest guides possible. TI pays off here. Low weight means you have the best chance for high sensitivity, all else equal. I make sure that after the reduction train on spin and after the first three or so guides on cast, I use the smallest, lightest , guides I can.

For cranks, surface, trolling, weight even at the tip won't fish any worse than light at the tip. Or near the tip.

The difference in weight of stainless framed guides and Titanium frames in almost negligible with small guides. The SIC ring material actually weights more than the Alconite so you are not going to see any difference in performance because they are almost equal. You sound like you are using a 6mm RV and 5mm KB / KTs and maybe even 4mm rings. When they get that small the weights are all over the place minutely because of frame stamping and glue used. There will not be any difference in weight, I have weighed them with a jeweler's scale and the Alconite SS frames in many cases, actually weigh less than Ti framed SIC or even Torzite. Unless you are fishing saltwater you shouldn't need the titanium frames. The ring material, other than weight, does not matter despite what Fuji claims. There may be a slight advantage with REC guides because they are very strong and don't break as easy as Fuji guides. You could probably get away with banging them on something or even stepping on them (if the blank doesn't break) without them cracking, popping the ring (no ring) or breaking off. Saltwater go with Ti, fresh water not needed.

For about 80% of fresh water fishing, stainless steel guides work just fine and are reasonably light - as long as you use the appropriate sized guide.

Of course you can go to alconite or more expensive guides is you wish, but normally going from stainless steel to alconite or ti will have negligible effect on a day of fishing with the rod.

Of course, a gram here, and a gram there but for the huge majority of fisherman, the weight difference of a few grams will never be felt or noticed in a day of fishing.

Of course, always your choice.

Take care

Jason,
You have received valuable and reliable information from veterans such as Herb, Michael, Lance and Roger; I agree with everything each has said. Allow me to interject my personal preference; STICK WITH FUJI. Rather than spending the big-bucks on Ti/Torsite guides, a very dependable option is their Corrosion Control SS frames with Alconite inserts. While Fuji’s Ti/Torsite guides may be the pinnacle of all present guides on the market, they are very proud of them and the price reflects so; CC/Alconite is more than adequate for 90% of any scenario, fresh or saltwater.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thanks guys it sounds like I’ll stick to the alconites.

A change of subject but guys that build more are you finding the RV guide a solid choice or maybe you went back to using a size 10 stripper? I’ll be building utilizing the simple spiral

I used the 10 on my first point blank build, 60/120/180 spiral and the RV6 on the last six point blank builds, cant tell any difference performance wise, I just like the look of the RV. If your interested in the 60/120/180 build, @#$%& has some great info and tools on their website. One is a excell spreadsheet for guide spacing, I have not had to move any guides after static testing, and the other is a degree wheel cutout, Its a means to assure you are exactly at whatever degree you are placing the guide at on the rod. Very simple to set up and use, just follow the directions. I also use all Fuji titanium torzite guides including tip top. I am a novice rod builder with only 8 builds but each one has turned out better than the previous, as far as finish. The Point Blank rods I have built, with great help from this forum I might add, are the best rods I have ever fished with, bar none, and I have been bass fishing for 45 years and had the best that St. Crouix and G.Loomis make.

I echo the majority of the comments above. I use a lot of stainless guides with aluminum oxide inserts. I've settled on 4mm guides as being the optimal size for my bass rods. The guide trains with steel guides that small are light enough that I can't tell a practical difference between steel and Ti frames when in use. When it comes to 6mm guides as the smallest, the difference between steel and Ti is significant.

You can skip the double foot guides all together and run single foots all the same size to the tip, and the rod performs just as well. However, I still like the look of one double foot guide followed by single foots to the tip. For me it's a size 6. If you have large hands and are building a true flipping rod, a taller guide can help create space between the line and blank making it easier to grab the line. Outside of that, there is no real reason to go to a larger guide with modern low profile bass reels.

As far as the RV guide, I'll pass, or turn it around so the double brace is on the reel side of the guide. I know that it's insignificant from a practical standpoint as it is only a single guide in the guide train and the one closest to the butt of the rod, but designing a guide to have the side with more material facing toward the tip of the rod goes against the physics of what a well designed guide train is trying to accomplish. You want the center of mass of the guide train as close to the reel as possible. Flipping around butt guides for a unique look (an idea I've seen used on few production spinning rods as well) just doesn't accomplish anything.

It would be much easier to make a list of current guides for sale which are NOT satisfactory, and why. Do not hold your breath waiting for actual proof of the superior performance or durability of any particular guides, but if you enjoy unsubstantiated claims you have chosen a fertile subject.

The RV 6 guide has a height advantage in a small ring size. I use it as the largest guide (stripper) in my micro guide trains. I believe it is perfect for spiral wrapping due to the height because it keeps the line off the blank and if used properly (opinion) can keep the line as straight as possible going into the spiral. Back in the 90s I would use single foot spinning guides as the stripper on baitcaster rods to save weight and get the height to keep the line straight coming from the reel through the guide train. I really don't see why you could not still use them but I like the look of a double foot stripper. Hum; a double foot stripper, sounds a little nasty......LOL

Great comments but...

The SiC ring is now in a Slim design which makes it lighter than ALCONITE, not heavier.

No one mentions ring polish which is a substantial part of the final price. TORZITE® is the most highly polished ring available, followed by SiC. Many will swear that highly polished rings feel smoother and cast a little longer than rings of lesser polish. Subjective? Maybe, but there is a mountain of such opinion spanning 30+ years that agrees.

Can you feel the difference between identical rods in stainless and Titanium? If you are reasonably estute and have done it a hundred different ways, as I have, then YES, you absolutely can.

The RV6 ring slopes forward toward the tip of the rod, an integral part of the tangle-free design of all K-Series guides. The slope moves the center of mass to the center point between the guide feet. reversing the reverse design reduces the performance and makes little difference in center of mass.

100% Opinion Alert: A POINT Blank equipped with Titanium SiC or TORZITE® is a tool the likes of which you have never experienced before.

No surprise that for 30 years rod builders have preferred to argue about guide performance rather than measure it.

Jim, between your comment and the other RV vs. LRV thread cleared up a couple things for me, particularly the additional height which can be beneficial for some builds. Given the K-series angle of RV guide, I would not turn it around. There's a lot to like in the full line of Fuji guides. Thanks!

Phil, here we go with another job opportunity. Measure it.

One point Keith brought up is appearance. While it doesn't affect performance, appearance to me is important. I just cannot get past those old fat gray rings. They just shout "Cheap! Ugly!" I really like the appearance of some guides, usually those with thin rings, black or dark blue rings, shiny frames, either black or silver or something in between. But glossy. And well finished.

The RV looks sort of cool. Like it. The Alps Ti double foot guides on my 8 wt fly rod- nice finish, well polished and finished, as in smooth welds, etc, look like jewelry on the rod.

While appearance may be unimportant to some, to me, looking down the rod with ugly guides is not the way I like to spend my days.

Phil, in what way could one measure it that would satisfy you? You have made it clear, without blatantly saying as much, that one simply saying I can "feel" the difference isn't proof enough.



Guys, I'm in the clear minority here. Most of my fishing was for speedy saltwater fish in the under 100# range. Usually under half that. Line used was 8-30# but the large majority was 12-17#. When a big wahoo, barracuda, dolphin, or kingfish (40#+) rips 100-200 yards of line off your reel on it's initial run I feel you can appreciate the difference in ceramic guide materials.

Typically the rods are heavy enough that the weight savings wasn't as big a deal to me as the smoothness. I liken it to the difference one feels in using a lever drag reel.

All that said I always considered the MSNG plenty good enough and mostly use Alconites. I'll admit to feeling Zirconium is nicer than Alconite but I like Fuji's fit and finish better.

I wish my pockets were deep enough for titanium and torzite but it is cost prohibitive for me. The few titanium guides I did try were too fragile for my likes. I have no doubt Fuji's are better in that regard.

I guess this is my way of saying that for the majority of situations I think any good quality ceramic insert is good enough. I'm just also saying that in some cases the better grades did make a noticeable difference to me. For that matter, roller guides did too.....but now you are getting into some serious big and fast fish.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Where excess drag is used I can definitely see the need for a high end insert and maybe distance casting more on the competitive side than anything.

My side of all this is more for freshwater fishing for bass. TiSic is $6 and alconite is $2 per guide roughly. I really felt the best was when we had the Ti alconite option. Don’t recall the price. Also likely it never sold well being manufactures not us builders probably didn’t see it’s marketing.

As anyone built multiples on the same blank but used different grades of guides?

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No surprise that for 30 years rod builders have
> preferred to argue about guide performance rather
> than measure it.

Get after it then ,instead of EVERY thread here complaining about things of this nature. I find it very odd.

As for the sentiments voiced above I don't really care about weight and performance as in my experience all of these guide manufacturers to the left put out quality products that will give you years of use with reasonable maintenance. I choose guides mainly for aesthetics,and those titanium guides sure are sweet!

for bass and panfish, i find CRB guides to be more than enough for me

Herb Ladenheim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO - guide inserts (rings) don't make much
> difference re performance.
> SS guides will discolor (rust) over time in salt
> water. So I prefer Titanium or NiTi as in REC
> recoils.
> But what does make a huge difference - IMO - is
> the weight of guides as they move to the tip.
> That's why I use REC Recoils - and the REC Recoil
> tip-top.
> Herb
> CTS Rep

Couldn’t possibly agree more with this statement.