CTS is planning to offer spigot ferrules in the near future.
They will be much lighter than previous versions we are all familiar with.
Herb
CTS agent.

Thanks, Herb. I am certainly interested as to what CTS has to offer.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

What is the perceived advantage of a spiggot ferrule? I have rods with both types of ferrules, but I can't say I have a preference.

"Stated" advantage by CTS's Stephen Pratt is to avoid fly line contact with edge of female ferrule on a tip-over-butt ferrule system.
The spigot system on CTS blanks will not be as bulky and heavy as traditional spigots.
Herb

Gravity should keep the fly line from toughing that slightly raised edge on a tip-over-butt ferrule. I'll have to ask Stephen more about this at the Expo this year.

...........

I am certainly not disputing their claim as CTS is very respected and has been manufacturing blanks longer than I have been building rods. Actually, I am surprised and pleased to learn a blank manufacturer is “reverting” back to spigots in lieu of the universally accepted tip-over-butt ferrule system. There are those, myself included, who consider a spigot to adversely affect the natural flex curve of a blank less than a TOB not to mention metal ferrules. Additionally, a spigot will produce the cleanest appearance of any with only a .125in gap between the two sections. My reasoning, albeit without supporting numerical facts, is that a spigot supports both ends of the blank identically whereas a TOB requires the female top section to be flared to accept the male butt section producing an overlap of increased wall thickness. Yes, I am aware of CAD CAM design. But as with most aspects of life, there are checks-and-balances / can’t-get-something-for-nothing set of laws; its smaller diameter can make the spigot more prone to failure/breakage. This is what drove me to develop my CARL (Constant Arc Rod Link) ferrule system which incorporates a .025in wall tubular woven FG spigot with an additional .012in woven FG sleeve ferrule over the connection. Both utilize the actual blank itself as a “mold” to produce inherently identical tapers. Together, the two are very light at less than 2g, very strong (none of the 20 or so out there have failed), and being tubular and flexible affect the flex curve of the blank less than any of the others (comparing the blank before and after cut, the calculated CCF values were actually 1-2 less with CARL).
But CARL or TOB will not satisfy the CTS criteria of eliminating the edge of the ferrule from coming in contact with the fly line. Personally, I do not see a .020in edge of a ferrule being of much consequence, but that is simply my opinion. None the less, I am very interested in viewing feedback from those who try a new CFS spigot blank/rod. The ultimate comparison would be if CTS offered their existing model TOB blanks but with a spigot or a new model with the choice of either a TOB or spigot. Those who try/test the new spigot blanks from CTS will hopefully afford us with their results/opinions. I am here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

There are different types of TOB ferrules. "Belled" models do not alter the natural curve of the blank. There is no "flat spotting."

..........

Mark,

Thanks for sharing. That is the type of info I enjoy reading. Your custom fabricated spigot ferrules lead me to believe that one of the biggest advantages is that a one pice blank design can be converted 'easily' into 2, 3, 4 or more pieces using cuts and well fit spigots. One of the biggest differences I've noticed with the few multi piece travel rods I've built is how aggressive the tapers need to be on each piece to make the TOB ferrules work, resulting in rods that were significantly more powerful than I expected (but pleasant surprises in those particular cases making those rods a bit more versatile than originally thought).

I look forward to hearing what people think about the new spigot designs.

Joe,
Just to clarify, the CARL system employs both an internal spigot as well as an external sleeve ferrule. As you noted, a single-piece blank can be converted to a multi-piece but ‘easily’ is a relative term; a set of CARL ferrules takes me about 2 hours, but for someone making them for the first time, 3-4 hours might be expected. One way or the other, a CARL will blow-away any metal ferrule which is basically the only other option when converting a single-piece to multi-piece blank. Admittedly, I am OK with a TOB when ordering a new multi-piece blank to save the effort; but I do not have the option when working with a single-piece blank such as the vintage Conolons I build.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. After seeing your post, I dug into the archives and read up on it a bit. It sounds like a great process and can definitely be beneficial in your situation. Maybe someday I'll have a good excuse to try it out.

There are logical and credible ways to compare the casting performance of TOB versus spigot ferrules. This would require some precise equipment and testing techniques, and the differences might well be too small for detection by unaided human senses.

With all due respect, it would be impossible to compare any performance difference, be it casting distance, dead lift, CCS, CCF or anything else between a TOB, Spigot, metal ferrule or CARL for that matter; we all know there is no such thing as identical blanks, even the same make and model from the same manufacturer. The only possible precise comparison would be measuring the difference of a single-piece blank before and after it is cut with a spigot, metal ferrule or CARL installed. Such cannot be accomplished for the TOB which is produced on two entirely different mandrels. While I have not seen any such test results for a spigot or metal ferruled blank/rod, I was more than pleased with the CCF numbers obtained of CARL, before and after the blank was cut.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Well said, Mark, and being said there is no reason to end this discussion - unless physical evidence of a rod's performance is necessary. If so, good luck finding any - any at all.

Herb,
Apologies are due from a few of us who stepped on your post, admittedly me included = sorry. I have been so bewildered as to why more do not accept my development of CARL that I tend to jump on the opportunity to reintroduce the concept when the opportunity arises. None the less, I am excited to learn more of CTS’s inclusion and development of the spigot ferrule system.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Not all tip-over-butt ferrules are the same. Some are based on the original Jim Green Feralite design which incorporated the entire tip section as the female ferrule. This required a change in taper between the one and two-piece versions of the same model. The advent of "belled" tip-over-butt ferrules allowed for the same taper in both the one and two-piece versions of the same model, with only a small section at the ferrule area enlarged to serve as the female ferrule. The latter has become the preferred ferrule on better multi-piece rods.

..........

Mark Talmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herb,
> Apologies are due from a few of us who stepped on
> your post, admittedly me included = sorry. I have
> been so bewildered as to why more do not accept my
> development of CARL that I tend to jump on the
> opportunity to reintroduce the concept when the
> opportunity arises. None the less, I am excited to
> learn more of CTS’s inclusion and development of
> the spigot ferrule system.

Mark,
I had no issue with any of the remarks from any of the members.
That is what this site is about. To discuss, educate and challenge.

So no apology needed.

Regards,
Herb

Mark, I do not think there is a lack of acceptance of your CARL innovation, in fact to contrary, it a very fine solution for an age old issue! However it has limited application as not many cut a blank into multiple sections.

Thanks, Phil; I appreciate the consoling.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

This thread has served to educate me a good deal on ferrule design.

Thanks guys!

The initial cost to design and fabricate good tip over butt ferrules is higher than for spigot ferrules. But once the original cost is reduced by units made, it is more economical because they do not require the addition and fitting of another part. The use of spigot ferrules is more cost effective at the outset. It also allows the blank manufacturer to design and build any blank as a one-piece model, and then construct multi-piece models, in various configurations, from that same blank. But it does require additional labor to cut the blank and fit the spigots.

..................