I have built with both Fuji KR Concept, and American Tackle Microwave guides. They both cast very well, and bot risist oine knots around the guides. I haven't tried the Fuji Torzite inserts, but ratherused the SIC inserts, and on the AT, I used the duralight. They are both strong and hold up well against all kinds of lines.

Has anyone done a side-by-side test to determine if one set of guides is truly more accurate, and casts longer distances? If so, what did you find. Also, are the Torzite guides really that much better than SI"C guides?

Last question; are there other guides that are as good as the Fuji, and American Tackle high end guides?

Tight lines and frisky fish

RJF

When you ask about others "as good." "As good" with respect to what? Ring hardness? Frame corrosion? Finsh appearance? Lack of foot burrs? Ring retention? Price? Weight? Casting distance and accuracy? With what line? What rod? Variety of finishes? Variety of ring sizes? Ring heights? My point is that there are so many variables in the definition of goodness, some important to some builders, some not, that it is impossible to answer the question. Casting performance is hard for normal people to measure, but even if we had the equipment, what configurations would we choose. We could spend a lifetime trying to find the answer. About the time that all that we tested was obsolete.

In general, there are a number of manufacturers who make what I consider very good guides. For the mix of attributes I care about , Fuji is my choice. I've built very nice, well performing rods with AmTak Microwave and other designs of theirs, and Alps guides of quite a few different models. I have no experience with Pac Bay or some of the newer brands on the market. From my experience it would be Fuji, Alps, Am Tac.

Robert, since you have built both and used them, you can find out all the info you need in short order. Accuracy depends on you, not the guides, you're putting to much impact on the difference in construction. A properly set up rod is going to get the job done regardless.

Fuji!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Robert,

I have never built with the Fuji KR Concept guides, but I have done some tests on the MicroWave guides as compared to the old standard "Cone of Flight" guide train. I took identical blanks and built one with the MW 30's and the other with the AT NanoLite Ring-Lock single-foot spinning guides (30-25-20-16-12-10-8 "Cone of Flight") I then went with a friend to a football field and tested both rods with the same reel and weight with three different lines, 17lb Mono, 6lb mono and 6lb super-line. I cast each setup 10 times to generate a statistically valid sample. I went into the test as a total skeptic, but was blown away by the difference. The distance was consistently a bit better (5 - 10 feet) with the MicroWaves, but the biggest difference was the ability to back off on the power and achieve the same distance, thereby allowing me to focus more on accuracy, Bottom line, I am now a big MicroWave fan, and have built with almost all of their configurations with zero complaints.

Robert, I actively use both systems and it depends on my application. However more often then not when using a rapid choke "KR" setup I am substituting American Tackle TiForged guides over fuji. The overwhelming benefit to microwave guides is that they are a complete system. This allows me as a builder to implement them quickly and easily into a build that fits the application. I think the microwave system is very efficient at choking the line, smoothing line payout and delivering on distance. There of course Is also the cosmetic aspect, some people love the looks of microwaves. There is no doubt they are different, and that has made them a conversation starter quite often. Some people don't like the look. There are applications where perhaps the microwave kits aren't always ideal, such has very short ultralight rods, or for a build where a heavier monofilament is to be used. For these applications a more customized solution is required. Nowadays american tackle offers microwave guides in a multitude of sizes from MW20 finesse 4mm runners, MW25, MW30 all the way to a MW50 set. These systems cover probably 90% or more of the applications out there. Personally I like the performance and appearance of the microwave system as do my customers.

I have built with both the Fuji k series layout and the Microwave guide system from American Tackle. Both work. As having a layout that is simple the Microwave is the best and easiest. The Layout for any other guide brand is time consuming and no gain in distance nor accuracy. Every reel is different so each time you go to lay out guides you will have to do a set up for that particular reel. With microwave it’s just measuring off the spool face and ready to wrap. As far as guide rings if you want the SIC ring in a American tackle brand guide you will need to look at the Nanolite. Its practically the same guide just more affordable and works well. Casting distance I feel is greater with the microwave guides. It’s not a long stung out process to get the line under control like the concept guide lay out. Microwave does it in the first guide and not over a series of guides.

I have never used the fuji K series of guides but I have used the Microwave guides in all of the configurations from the MW50s on a carp rod to the the Casting set up on numerous bass rods. The ease of set up and the benefits of line control and casting distance make it hard to change from the proven Microwave guides.

Rolly Beenen
Rovic Custom Rods

Both have it's merits, but the MW system are simply easier and virtually fool proof when it comes to installation. I personally don't have the time required to pull off the Fuli K Concept and customer don't always have the reel readily available for me to build off. And more importantly, if I or the customer ever decided to swap out reels, it's not a problem with MWs.... not so much for the Fuji Ks. As for your questions about duralite ceramics, I don't have much experience with the duralite as I only use the TI MWs with nanolite rings and never had any fail on mono/braid/flourocarbon for the past 4-5 years of hard fishing in both salt and freshwater environments. I even put these on my Kid's rods and they have yet been able to destroy a frame or ring. IMHO if both achieve very similar results, but one is easier to install and is futureproof when it comes to the inevitable reel replacement... MWs would be my preferred choice.

I switched to the microwave system exclusively for ease of setup. As I learned to build in 2015, I would freak out about guide train, guide size, spacing, number guides etc. I ordered microwave guides and learned real fast the ease of laying out a rod. Building mostly panfish and bass rods in Indiana, I was blown away by how well owners loved these guides. Durability, looks and the ease of casting compared to the high end rods they “bought”. I hadn’t fished them much so built myself a rod just for me and they are awesome. I haven’t used Fuji K and probably never will so I can’t compare to them directly but I know I don’t have any other guides in my work area. Microwave airs are actually what I use most. Everything from 7’ light panfish rods to casting and spinning rods for walleye, the perform fantastic and those who order an additional rod make sure I’m still using them.

Wes Motsinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Casting distance I
> feel is greater with the microwave guides. It’s
> not a long strung out process to get the line under
> control like the concept guide lay out. Microwave
> does it in the first guide and not over a series
> of guides.

When I did some research on this subject I rejected the microwave concept because it is too much attenuation too quickly in the butt/stripper guide that causes the line to often over shoot past the microwave stripper guide because the line is coming off the reel faster than it can move through the microwave choke point of way too much attenuation too quickly. Here is an image from the youtube video showing the line over shooting the microwave stripper guide because of over-attenuation too quickly:

[i.imgur.com]

The standard guide system for spinning rods has traditionally been a slower attenuation effect of the line oscillation coming off the reel spread out over several guides- and line over shooting the stripper guide is not a problem since the line coming off the reel can move through the larger guides at nearly the same rate- but not so with the microwave guide.

Too large of a stripper guide with too short of a leg allows for line to slap the blank on a cast. And can sometimes get tangled up on old style guides.

I prefer the Fuji K-R concept all day long simply because it addresses the real problems without causing new ones.

So today I won't use the microwave guides, and I prefer the K-R guides with a slightly reduced sizing than normal. I want a little more up front attenuation, but no where near what the near instant muting effect of the microwave guide allowing- well, actually forcing the line to over shoot the microwave guide as seen in the slow motion video.

It does not make sense to me to have more line coming off the reel faster than all of it can travel through the first guide forcing the over shoot issue into the equation.

They both work so it is a matter of personal choice really. I have a background in audio and "signal routing and control" in sound and communications systems, so my analog thinking has lead me to a more controlled uniform attenuation rather than an immediate muting choke point alternative. K-R over microwave for me. K-R addresses past standard issues, and microwave sort of does while creating a new problem I choose to steer clear of.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2020 10:36AM by Kent Griffith.

They both work well. However, I much prefer the KR concept because of its the versatility in setting up guide trains for various types of rods with various types of reels with various types of line. The microwave system is basically sold as a Kit where one size fits all. There’s nothing wrong with that because it’s easy and works well. I use to have both set ups on identical rods using the same reel for people to use for comparison purposes, In most cases the KR setup was preferred. I personally find KR concept to be smoother and longer casting. In short, try both and see which one you prefer.
Norm

Every time I bought a "one size fits all" I was disappointed. I doubt one model or even one brand of guide is best for all conditions and all types of lines - say, best for #10 test gel-spun braid or best for #40 fluorocarbon monofilament? The only recommendations for a particular make or model of guide I encounter are from advertisers or strangers to me. Guide recommendations which ignore targeted species, angling method, or ambient temperature are pretty much useless to me.

I did a test with the MW 20 and the Fuji Kr spinning guides. I used a Rainshadow IP844 blank and a Penn fierce 2 3000 with power pro 20lbs braid. I used a 1/4oz bunker weight for the test. The first thing I noticed that the MW20 were a lot easier and quicker to set up. Once both rods were setup I took them out and tested them for distance and accuracy. I found with the MW I had to adjust the way I cast to get the best performance out of them, but once I was dialed in I found that I was able to cast further. As far as accuracy I feel the edge went to the MW due to not having to cast as hard, but in all fairness I think accuracy has a lot to do with the user and conditions.
Some of the other benefits I have found with the MW are that they are no reel specific and any reel with in the guide’s range will perform as expected and for a builder or customer that is a great selling point. I also like how durable the MW’s are I have beaten the snot out of mine and they have held up perfectly.

I've never used the Microwave guides. I've used a KR concept guide train on all of the spinning rods I've built thus far. What I want to know is .....a lot of people are touting how easy the microwave system is to set up. What makes it so easy? Or I should ask, what makes it so much easier to set up than a KR concept guide train? Is it the fact that the microwave system comes with a sheet that gives you the guide's spacing, versus having to actually input a few numbers into the KR concept software?

And please correct me if I am wrong. I know the microwave system comes with guide spacing, and I believe it is spacing for every guide in the set. Is that correct? And if it is correct, and you follow the guide spacing they provide, which is suggested by the manufacturer if you want the best performance from the set, then it means that you aren't doing a static load test to see if the guides are in their proper position when the blank is loaded?

Every single customer that has gone with any of the MicroWave guides has said how much they liked them. Customers continually report increased casting distance and improved accuracy. Not only do anglers like the benefits of these great guides, but from a builder standpoint point they are easily applied to many different build types, there is likely a guide set in the MicroWave family that will meet your needs, you can get them in black and and they have proven to be very durable. I use them on most of my personal rods.

Kent

The picture you have is correct. What do you think is happening to the kr series if you slowed it down. The guides are both over run by line because of the slinky effect. With many folks building on the mw’s I think it’s been a winner on many levels. Just look at all the awards they have won with them over the years. Like many things let the work talk for you and they definitely have done well on levels now from fly rods to offshore spinning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2020 05:49PM by Wes Motsinger.

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never used the Microwave guides. I've used a
> KR concept guide train on all of the spinning rods
> I've built thus far. What I want to know is .....a
> lot of people are touting how easy the microwave
> system is to set up. What makes it so easy? Or I
> should ask, what makes it so much easier to set up
> than a KR concept guide train? Is it the fact that
> the microwave system comes with a sheet that gives
> you the guide's spacing, versus having to actually
> input a few numbers into the KR concept software?
>
>
> And please correct me if I am wrong. I know the
> microwave system comes with guide spacing, and I
> believe it is spacing for every guide in the set.
> Is that correct? And if it is correct, and you
> follow the guide spacing they provide, which is
> suggested by the manufacturer if you want the best
> performance from the set, then it means that you
> aren't doing a static load test to see if the
> guides are in their proper position when the blank
> is loaded?


Static test is recommended for the running guides on the MWG... the chart supplied is just a starting point.

_______________________________
God Bless, Don Morse

800-516-1750 ext. 1207 / don@americantackle.us

Rod Building..... It's What We Do.

Hi Robert
I don't know how helpful my opinion will be because I'm kinda stuck on how awesome the MicroWave guides look, the fact that its a complete system and I don't have to think to hard. Also there is no comparison as far as I'm concerned that can match them. There are so many types that will match just about anything you can come up with. Again my opinion is probably biased

The set of measurements is a helpful recommendation but certainly not a one size fits all. Yes I start with the placement nearly the same for every build. First two guides to me are nearly always the same. From there as I work towards tip, my static test shows me places I could tweak a little bit. Many times on shorter builds I don’t use them all. I’ve also found having the extra guide on like a 6’6” makes it a lot smoother transition across all guides when compared to other setups. So what if I have an extra, never know when you lose one on your bench. I’d guess many that have posted static test, you have to if want you know you’re doing it right. I would also say that if you use those measurements and don’t test, you’re still going to have a sweet casting rod. I’ve done it, I know it. Many of my 7’ builds get very little movement from the recommended measurements. Took the guesswork out for me, I am confident every microwave guide I send out is going to be the best casting rod for the owner. Then they tell me after they use it!