As long as the grip, reel seat, guides and ferrules (and breeze) don't move during the cast the rod, with the same input, will cast to the same spot every time. A competent caster will instinctively compensate for the idiosyncrasies of a particular rod after a few casts. Regardless of the make, model, number, or placement of guides you can't buy or build a rod which will make you an accurate or even a competent caster - that's up to you, not your equipment.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Regardless of
> the make, model, number, or placement of guides
> you can't buy or build a rod which will make you
> an accurate or even a competent caster - that's up
> to you, not your equipment.

This is exactly right!



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 09:25AM by Kent Griffith.

I'm really amazed by the number of builders that are saying that accuracy is solely dependent on the skill of the caster. I beg to differ, and I am basing this on personal experience.

I have a casting rod that I bought brand new. I have had the rod for 30 years, give or take a year a year or two. In it's stock form, I could cast it very accurately. About 15 years into my owning this rod, I had someone replace the guides on the rod. At the time I had zero idea about guides and their sizing or placement. I just knew that the rod was starting to look a little ratty, and I wanted it to look brand new again. The person that put new guides on it did not put the same size guides that were on it from the factory. He put larger guides on it. How do I know he put larger guides on it? Because I could see it with my eyes. Anyhow .... the rod cast completely different from when it was in its' stock form. I am and at the time, very proficient with a casting reel. I thought as many have made mention, that I would be able to get used to the different casting characteristics of the refurbished rod, But I couldn't. It would act one way on one cast, and another way on the next cast. When I say act, I am referring to how it handled the line. Sometimes it would cast smoothly, other times it would cause a small backlash to start in the spool. It didn't handle the line consistently

It was so bad that I stopped using the rod all toghether, and it was and still is one of my favorite rods. It's a 5'6" pistol grip casting rod that I use for throwing spinnerbaits to predominantly wood cover. I loved that rod. That rod is actually the reason I got into working on rods. I wanted to put new guides on it to see if I could get back the love that I once had for it. I replaced the guides on that rod, with what I learned (simply by reading this site prior to becoming a member) should be the proper size guides and the proper way to space them. I now am in love with that rod again.

I did nothing other than change the guides on the rod and it handled the line much more consistently than the guides that were on it before I changed them. I didn't get better casting, I made the equipment better. It's the same with a guitar. When I started playing guitar, I had a cheap Les Paul copy. My next guitar was a high quality guitar. It played much smoother and much more consistently that my cheapo Les Paul copy, which allowed my playing to improve dramatically. Equipment....... the proper equipment makes a difference.

Accuracy is about consistency. If the guides handle the line more consistently, they are going to aid in accuracy.

Dufford

"Its called being taught by doing an expensive course under the tutelage of a very experienced rod builder"

I greatly respect the fact that you spent the time and investment to do so!
I think the problem is you stopped learning and as such are stuck in the past!

Many of the worlds best most qualified builders frequent and share info on this site, educating and teaching others at no expense.
It is because of their love for this craft and sharing with others that rod building has progressed light years ahead of what it was 40 years ago.

The problem arises when ego's get in the way, many builders ( myself included ) feel they already build the best rods possible, and when a new idea or concept comes along.
instead of being open to the possibilities, They automatically become offended, defensive or feel threatened. Like some one is challenging/attacking their abilities,
instead of just trying improve our craft.

I experienced this personally 14 years ago after introducing Micro guides to the custom rod building world for use on modern day bass spinning and casting rods.
Then later being asked to write an article on them for Rod Maker Mag.
After the article was printed i received more then 200 emails. About half from builders wanting to learn, and know where they could purchase them.

The other half from builders who egos were offended by the thought that some one might have an idea for improving their builds, when in their opinion they already built the best rods known to man.

One builder went into great detail to explain how:
I "would be personally responsible for bankrupting rod builders all across this country as their trash cans filled up
with returned rods having micro guides on them from all the B.S. I was spouting out."
Several others posting every on this site every chance they got to discredit the concept with out ever even seeing a Micro guide or trying them out to see if the info was legit

Close to a 100 million Micro rods later. I've yet to hear of anyone going bankrupt, or even received an email from the gentleman saying he might have been wrong.

I'm posting this in hopes it will influence you to open your mind to further education.

You are correct, there are some sheep on this forum. But there are also many shepherds, and many of those masters at this craft, willing to support you or anyone willing to learn.
But you will have to set your ego aside to do so.

I still feel I build the best rods, but
My prayer to GOD, is that I never stop learning
there is always room for improvement

Great post Mr. Gardner!!

Once again I find myself in agreement with David Baylor. If you have to modify your casting technique to make a rod cast as it should, it was incorrectly built. Steve Gardner, very well said! Steve Cox, what happened with Washington? I can be a little slow at times. I swore I was gonna stay off this thread, but here I am. To the original poster, are you available for tutoring?

general reply reposted below



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 07:17AM by Dufford Scott.

Deleted post due to messing up trying to quote
forum is a bit odd
lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2020 07:16AM by Dufford Scott.

As expected plenty of sheep, follower types rubbishing spine building
It is a VERY convenient thing NOT to do, so we are agreed on something!
What makes me laugh, though, is it takes about three minutes to spine and mark up a blank before actual building work begins, and what makes me laugh even harder is pandering to idiot customers who insist their rod should be straight! All you have to do is explain to them that straight blanks do not exist, then go into more detail if you want. I would rather fish a rod going 90 degress sideways, as long as it was perfectly spined, than an unspined dead straight piece of rubbish

I will come back to this simple fact, and remind you that my hands and eyes do not lie
I tested a rod that had a strong spine that was built as far off spine as its possible to be
It twisted HORRENDOUSLY under load - it was so bad that all the feel of the load was going sideways into torque twist rather than going directly through my arm
You may be happy with playing fish without feel, but I prefer to know where they are and what they are doing
Perhaps if you did any fishing and knew what big fish felt like on the end of the line you would understand better what I mean
''Feel'' isn't a vague concept in the slightest, it is the load and strain of a fish going through the rod and your arm - in essence the reason we fish is the thrill of playing big fish
If you are just fishing for meat, then fine go and buy a non spined rod but you might as well use a net or electricity frankly

Guide orientation determines if a rod will twist under load, not spine orientation. You're arguing against physics now. Did the professional rod builder you studied under explain what a lever arm is?

............

Despite claims of too much data polluting hearsay about rod building there is precious little data (facts which can be tested/replicated) on this site. I enjoy reading the opinions of others but whenever I can I base my decisions on conclusions supported by results which can be observed rather than by "I say so".

of course not Tom..that would negate all his arguements about spine..i just do not see how one can sell crooked rods but i guess there,s enough customers who worry about being sheeple..lol..i doubt if they become return customers..

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Despite claims of too much data polluting hearsay
> about rod building there is precious little data
> (facts which can be tested/replicated) on this
> site. I enjoy reading the opinions of others but
> whenever I can I base my decisions on conclusions
> supported by results which can be observed rather
> than by "I say so".


Phil,

Go to the two articles I listed early in the course of this topic. Repeat the tests and measurements (you will have to be willing to break a good number of rod blanks) and you will be able to replicate the results just as they are in the articles.

..............

Dufford Scott Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What makes me laugh, though, is it takes about
> three minutes to spine and mark up a blank before
> actual building work begins, and what makes me
> laugh even harder is pandering to idiot customers
> who insist their rod should be straight!
>
> I will come back to this simple fact, and remind
> you that my hands and eyes do not lie

Dufford, I spine every rod before I build on them and then build on the straightest axis as there is nothing more irritating then looking down a crooked blank while I fish. I have a feeling that your customers do care that they are fishing a crooked blank, more than likely, they don't like being talked down to either. I would love to tell you 40 years of experience makes you a superior builder to the rest of us mortals, however I have worked at a job for 40 years and still learn something new every day, if you shut yourself off and refuse to try new things you will stagnate and your work will suffer. I think that you feel building on the spine makes you a superior craftsman, but I have found that is rarely the case as your hubris is surely going to limit your customer base. I have a friend that is an engineer for St Croix that has access to the testing equipment for sensitivity and breakage, they build on the straightest axis and they have found there is no difference in breakage or sensitivity on a rod built on or off the spine, maybe you hands don't lie, but they may exaggerate just a bit. I also don't think they tell their customer to fish with a crooked rod and they'll like it.

Mark, i think Bufford has had enough fun and is moving on to greener waters..Alas..it was fun while it lasted..lol.

Dufford, I have not previously posted on this thread with the reason being that it is impossible to discuss a topic rationally when ones mind is already made up and will never change despite any evidence to the contrary. You started this thread not to inform or to give an opinion but rather to insult, so I stayed away. Your last post was over the top, you insulted everyone on this site that builds on the straightest axis by calling us sheep and idiots. We build on the straightest axis for valid reasons, as given above. You are certainly welcome to disagree, but please don’t be disagreeable and insulting. If you want to build on the spine do so, but don’t disparage us who disagree. It’s not the way to make friends or influence people.
Norm

As all competent casters (especially fly casters) will confirm the path of a cast follows the path of the rod tip when the line is released. The moment the line is released during the cast the rod and the angler can only change the forward progress of the line in one direction - down - no matter what guides, or many guides, or how they are spaced. You can't push on a rope. All the guides and their locations and spacing won't allow you to push a fishline where you want it to go.

Wow the original poster is sure not what I have come to expect on this forum

His post should of went like this:

I have found after doing "x" that when I do "y" instead I feel like I get better performance. What has been your experience?

Seems like the type that will tell you 2+2 does not equal 4 because he says 3+1 equals 4.

If an angler moves the rod tip to the side after the moment of release, the line's path will change from its original path. It's quite easy to curve a cast in mid air with bait casting gear.

Mr. Baylor

yes it is!
I do it quite often