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Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: July 30, 2020 04:43AM

Well I am once again thinking too much. I ordered a blank got the wrong one. Now I am waiting which gives me too much time to think over my build. Had it somewhat figured out I thought.

Anyways the blank is a Phenix FX601-1-B fast action six foot 1-6 lb. My whole goal is to build as light as possible. My reel will be a pflueger president xt 20x with 4 pound mono or 6 pound braid. Will be a small stream trout rod. Casting distance is not super critical. More important will be proper placement of the runners to spread the load. I am happy to catch ten inch trout and that is my usual expectation. However there are some monsters lurking and one day the blank my be put to a serious test.

The reel is smaller than a 1000 size. Using the KR Concept GPS website gives me guides that are too big for this reel imo. They list a 16H 8H and a 5.5m. Minima match 16 8 5 are almost identical.I used the GPS on another similar rod and same reel. I went a 12 7 5 minima. Worked fine. I could go the same route again i suppose. Just thinking if there is a better option.

I will again be using Minimas for the guides. Will I be setting myself up for problems if try to run just two reduction guides before dropping to the runners. I know for certain I will use a 12m for my stripper probable a 6m or 7m next then hopefully to the runners which will be 5s. I want to go smaller eyes and fingers won't let me though.

Other thought would be to go with my first two reduction guides as match then go to a Minima SV if the third is needed. Perhaps a 12m 6m 5sv then my runners.

Apperciate any thoughts and advice.

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 30, 2020 09:11AM

Reel spool diameter and line type are the factors here, not the rod blank. If we're talking braid and a light pound test at that, then what you propose will likely be just fine. Of course there is always one way to find out - tape up a set and go try it. Tape another another set and try that one.

For whatever it's worth, generally the first running guide is the choke guide. I would suspect that given the small spool diameter the choke guide wouldn't be far enough up the rod to allow for 3 reduction guides so 2 may be just the ticket.

..........

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: July 30, 2020 10:43AM

I build a fair number of UL rods, and I use Minima4 M guides for the reduction train and F guides for runners. For these ULs , I always use 16M, 8M, 5M for the reduction train, and 4wF guides for the runners. Because the 4w F guides have a wide foot I will prep the feet on the guides to make them a little narrower on the sides. The whole set of Minima guides will weigh less than a single ceramic size 20 V guide. So no problem with weight. The stripper will go about 18” to 19” in front of the reel spool and the the choke guide about 19” in front of the stripper. I progressively fill in the space between the the stripper and choke guide with the other two reduction guides, and progressively fill in the space between the choke and tip top with the other runners. You can certainly move the choke guide in or out a little to get the spacing you like. I then do a static test and test cast. For a 6’ rod I would use 7 or 8 guides total. This gives a very light guide train and will perform exceptionally. If you don’t use the 4wF guides the size 5 will work just fine without the need for prepping them.
Norm

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: July 30, 2020 11:40AM

If you want to go with a size 12 stripper, I might try 12M, 6M, 4LM to size 4 F runners. Although I have not tried this before, I think it might work quite well. I think the 4LM would give a better transition to the runners, without adding any additional weight. Again about 18” to 19” in front of the reel and the choke about 18 to 19” in front of the stripper. I would still use 7 to 8 guides total. If you don’t use more guides, the spacing between runners will be too much and not give a good static test. You need to spread out the load, especially with an UL, and couple of extra runners will do that.
Norm

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: July 30, 2020 02:34PM

I typically go with the 16 8 5 and works great. This case though the reel is so small, only holds 100 yards 4 pound mono,don't see the need for the extra height and weight. I thought of 12m 6m 4lm. Trying to stay at size five. I have a hard time threading the 4 guides. If I drop to a a 5 sv it is only .7 mm taller than the 4lm. Don't think that will matter much. The height difference from the 5 sv to a 5 f is 1.7 mm. The 4lm to 4 f is 1.6. So may transitions of height will be nearly the same yet with the larger ring size.

I am going to try with just a 12mm and 6m at first. I want to use as many runners as possible to spread the load and would rather use my guide weight there.

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: July 30, 2020 05:29PM

FWIW, when I decided to rebuild an old favorite UL rod.....I opted to spring for titanium running guides. Being a 5'6'' rod I was only looking at 3 guides so cost wasn't a biggie. I mean sure, they are 5-6 bucks instead of a 1-2 bucks but you are getting the best ring material in the lightest frame.....so what's another 10-15 bucks total on the rod?

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: July 30, 2020 06:03PM

I think the 5 SV would work fine. I don’t find the 4wF to small to thread, the lack of a ceramic insert makes the ID is more like a 5 or 6 ceramic guide. Have you tried the Fuji speed threader? They really work great and you can thread the guides blindfolded with no problem.
[m.youtube.com]
Norm

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: July 30, 2020 06:27PM

Michael,
Put on a size 12 stripper and then run size 4.5 to the tips. Leave a larger than normal amount of room between the size 12 and the first 4.5 so that the line will settle a bit.

Wrap the guides and then put on a coat of CP to seal the thread and go fish with it for a couple of weeks. If happy, put on a coat of finish and leave it that way.

If not happy, remove the first stripper and put in a size 8 in that location and you should be good t go. With the small reel and the soft supple lines that you are using, you should have no issue with either of these setups.

Let us know when you do a couple of weeks of fishing with the first setup and let us know if you need to change any thing.

Take care

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: July 30, 2020 08:10PM

like Roger, i,m using a #12 stripper then running with 5s using 10# power pro line.. no problems at all..i went to a ML glass rod on last build and getting B&A shots 50 to 60' with this set up of no reduction guides, just a stripper..puting one together with just a #10 stripper now maybe go down to an 8, just for giggles..the soft braided line does not care..it just works..

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: July 30, 2020 09:21PM

Ben, what is a B&A shot? Pardon my ignorance,

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: July 30, 2020 10:12PM

sorry Lynn, that,s my ignorance not yours..it,s a bow and arrow cast, where you pull the lure back and load the rod, release the lure and it shoots out over the water..i bank fish farm ponds and sometimes this is the only way to cast because of trees etc..i,ve been trying to perfect a rod for this purpose ..it has to be short because of tight quarters, best so far is about a fourfeet long..any longer it becomes more difficult to reach the lure..i use cheap glass rods cut back, light to med./ light..my last build was getting 50 to 60' which is more than enough.. now i,m just fine tuning some things on it..keeps me out of trouble, so far..lol.

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: July 31, 2020 01:24AM

Thanks for the ideas. Very intrigued by the stripper to runner setup. Little concerned with using mono with such a setup as the small spool diameter does impart some coiling even with light line. However with light braid should be just the ticket. Casts over thirty feet are very rare most times. Usual just a short pitch to get my bait lined up for a drift.

Still undecided between 4s and 5s. Got the speed threader which helps. If the info I found is correct the 4s are about half the weight of the 5s. So I am leaning strong towards them.

Once the blank arrives I will be doing some experimenting. Going to start with one stripper guide then static test the blank. Thinking 7 to 8 guides total. Just have a hard time picturing how the transition from the 12 m to a runner is going to work.

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 31, 2020 09:16AM

If you taped three different guide trains to your rod blank, test casted each configuration, and measured the results in feet and inches I doubt you would find a significant difference in performance - either distance accuracy - but I don't doubt you would sense a different feeling from each.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2020 09:18AM by Phil Ewanicki.

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: July 31, 2020 10:55AM

just for extra credit/giggles i ran the line from the spool to the first running guide and tried casting and B&A shooting, no butt or reducing guides..i did not see any difference..it,s like we don,t need these guides at all..sure would be a lot less weight..it looks like an upside down casting rod..lol..the first guide is 14" from the spool lip...it looks like Phil is right..the guide train doesn,t really matter(with braided line).

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: July 31, 2020 11:27AM

I have done measured casting tests before using different guide concepts on the same rod model using the same reel, and there certainly can be a difference in both casting distance and feel. I have also changed out guides on numerous rods for people and demonstrated better casting performance using a lighter modern guide train. A lot of people down here use long jigging rods as crappie spinning rods for casting small jigs, and float and flies. By using a well set up KR concept on these rods casting distance improves quite a bit. My experiences have proven to me that all guide trains will cast but not all guide trains will cast equally well.
My best advice is to experiment with different guides and guide trains and prove to yourself what works best for you.
Norm

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: July 31, 2020 11:54AM

Norman, great advice..that,s what makes this hobby rewarding..

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 31, 2020 02:34PM

The expectations of and casting proficiency of anglers varies widely, so it's difficult to make helpful rod building suggestions on-line. That's why savvy builders and buyers should communicate directly, better yet face-to-face, as much as possible to maximize the satisfaction of both.

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: July 31, 2020 04:00PM

This is a rod for myself. So I got the direct communication handled. As for online suggestions I think they are extremely helpful. They can eliminate a lot of dead ends. As much as I like to experiment I get easily frustrated when things don't work. I am more likely to settle on something that might not be the best option if I hit a wall too many times. If I can eliminate some ideas by getting advice online I will have more time before I get frustrated. In the end hopefully come up with a better solution for my issue.

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Re: Thoughts of # of Reduction Guides on 6' UL
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: August 04, 2020 03:32PM

Michael, last night i took off the #5 running guides and put #4s on..i did some test casting today and can,t say i see any difference in distance or ease of cast..it,s a much lighter guide train without a stripper guide and reducers, that,s for sure but it,s only for braided lines..i,m still gettin 40 to 50' with the B&A cast which i,m satisfied with..i,m still using a quarter ounce trap for a practice plug..i had to remove the belly BBs and both hooks to get 7.3 grams which is close enough to a quarter ounce..i,m going to stay with this set up and see how it fishes..

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