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KR concept for 13' rod?
Posted by: Alex Corvin (---.bb11352.ctm.net)
Date: July 26, 2020 12:27AM

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Some follow up, and need some advice.

So I ended up getting a 4 reduction train, KL20H, 10H, 7M, and 5.5L, then 9 KT5 as runnings.

Again, here is the CTS guide placement suggestions:

From top to stripper, 13 guides in total, distance in mm: 125, 268, 428, 607, 803, 1017, 1245, 1487, 1743, 2016, 2314, 2638, 2988

When I use 4 guides reduction train now (instead of 3), shall I place them on a longer train? Or the same train distance as of 3, but more guides?

I assumed a longer train, so I place them on 2016, 2314, 2638, 2988, with the 1743 being the choker(a KT).

So now the reduction train distance is from 1743 to 2988 = 1245mm = 49in.

Now, according to the KR GPS for 13ft rod it showed the reduction train to be 49.56in. So, it makes sense, right?

But when I looked through the guides they did not show bulls eyes. I think the distance between the KL20 and 10 is too close (2638 to 2988).

So with the KL20 untouched, I moved the other 3 smaller KL forward (towards the rod tip) to get them bulls eye.

But when they are in perfect bulls eye, the distance between last reduction train guide (KL5.5) and the choker, is shorter than the next one (the choker to the next running guide, 1743 to 1478), which seems weird......

Shall I move the KL5.5 backward a bit to have the distance between it and choker larger than the next running guide spacing (1743 to 1478)?

Thanks....

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Re: KR concept for 13' rod?
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: July 26, 2020 12:56AM

Guide trains don't "look" right, or wrong, they just are. That said I like to have the choker not in the bull's eye like the illustration at the end of the article, that brings the choker a little bit closer to your rod tip and the next guide.

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Re: KR concept for 13' rod?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: July 26, 2020 09:35AM

When measuring the "distance" of guides do you measure from the butt cap, or the back of the reel seat, or the point where the line leaves the reel, or the middle of the reel seat, or the front of the reel seat, or what? Is this starting point the same for fly rods, casting rods, and spinning rods without regard to diameters of their reel spools?

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Re: KR concept for 13' rod?
Posted by: Alex Corvin (---.static.ctmip.net)
Date: July 26, 2020 09:45AM

None of the above stated distances was measured from those.

The CTS figures I stated were measuring from the rod tip top.

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Re: KR concept for 13' rod?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: July 26, 2020 11:51AM

Alex, as I mentioned previously the KR GPS calculate the choke point by multiply the distance from the the stripper to the tip top by 0.42 and then placing the choke guide at that distance in front of the stripper. Thus reduction train gets longer with longer rods, this basically reduces the number of overall guides needed, but gives a good starting point for most rods. As you can see that the choke position is a moveable point that is not locked in stone. In your case with a very long rod, I would move the choke point in closer to the stripper, rather than further away. For your rod using 13 guides total, would try the following layout as a starting point. From the tip top in centimeters
11
23.5
37.5
53
70
89
110
133
159
188 - KL5.5L choke
220 - KL7M
256 - KL10H
297 - KL20H
This moves the choke closer to the reel and pushes the stripper a little further out and will give a shorter reduction train. However, it will look better, give a good static and cast well. See how it performs and tweak accordingly. If anything you may need an extra runner.
For me an easy way to visualize a bulls eye is to run line from the reel through all the guides and tie on a light weight, and let it hang from the tip top. With the rod horizontal, I push the line to the bottom of the reel spool and look for a straight line from the reel to the choke guide and another straight line from the choke to the tip top with the line touching the bottom of each guide. A slight angle entering the stripper is OK. It much easier to do then using you eye. Hope this helps
Phil, when giving people a guide layout, it just easier to start at the tip top and work down, no matter how the data was obtained. I this case the reel and line size were taken into account to get a starting point. The static test and casting test will fine tune if necessary. There is a lot of flexibility in laying out a well performing guide train. Nothing is locked in stone. This is just my way of doing it, and it has worked well for me.
Norm

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Re: KR concept for 13' rod?
Posted by: Alex Corvin (---.static.ctmip.net)
Date: July 26, 2020 11:57AM

This is what I got from using Fuji's suggestion for a 4 reduction train on 11ft seabass rod.

Stripper 20H -- 40cm -- 10H -- 32cm -- 7M -- 27.5cm -- 5.5L -- 23cm -- choker

I placed them on the table edge, with the 10H and 7M being a bit shorter to the edge, so the train is a bit a concave than a straight line, would this be ok?

[scontent-hkg4-1.xx.fbcdn.net]

Then, the next question is that, from my original setting as per CTS, the choker to the next running guide is 24.5mm, so it is longer than the previous guide distance (5.5L to choker, 23cm). How to solve this problem ?

Guess I have to move the choker towards to tip, to make the distance from 5.5L to choker, larger than the next choker to running guide spacing? And each spacing between running guides would be shorter towards the tip?

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Re: KR concept for 13' rod?
Posted by: Alex Corvin (---.static.ctmip.net)
Date: July 26, 2020 12:16PM

Thanks Norm. Just see your reply after I posted the above reply.

I'll try your setting tomorrow and let you know.

11
23.5
37.5
53
70
89
110
133
159
188 - KL5.5L choke
220 - KL7M
256 - KL10H
297 - KL20H

So you take the KL5.5L as choker, even with a 4 reduction guides train? I thought the choker would be the next KT5, which is the one in your 159mm position.

I think this is why the reduction train I said above would be longer than yours. (From KL20H to KT5 vs from KL20H to KT5.5L)

This is the setting I m testing and mentioned above, with running guides based on CTS suggestions and moved the reduction guides....

125
268
428
607
803
1017
1245
1487
1725 KT (I thought this would be the choker )
1961 KL5.5L
2235 KL7M
2550 KL10H
2950 KL20H

And one more question, how do you calculate the new positions of all the running guides Norm? Is there a program or formula to do this?

Thanks very much.

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Re: KR concept for 13' rod?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: July 26, 2020 01:29PM

As I said, I have found that laying out a guide train layout is very flexible, and the choke point can certainly be moved in or out to get the spacing that works. Although I have not done a 13’ KR rod before, I have done KR layouts on hundreds of other rods from 4’ to 12’ with good success. So there is some experience involved based upon a lot of experimentation on my part. In short, I place the stripper based on reel size and line type, usually from 18” to 22” from the reel spool, and this can vary a little on the length of the rod. I also know what distance works well for a lot of reel sizes. I then calculate a tentative position for the choke guide based on the the 0.42 multiplication factor I derived this from the Fuji KR GPS calculator. This factor works very well for most rods. However, not so much for very short and very long rods. For very short rods the calculated reduction train is just too short for my liking and I tend to move the choke out to make it longer. For very long rods, I do the opposite. I like progressive spacing, because I think it not only looks better but also performs well based on my experience and evaluations. So basically I fill in the spaces between the stripper and choke and the choke and tip top, with the number of guides I think I will need, moving the choke and/or stripper in or out until I get a tentative spacing I like. I then do a static test and then a casting test and adjust the spacing as needed. If needed I will add an additional running guide or so. I also do the bottom of the spool line test just to get a visual confirmation. Nothing magical about this, it’s all about knowing what will work and how to get there. Your layout may work just as well as my layout, just try both and see what happens. Good luck.
Norm

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