The rod I just built is working great and i really like it so far with the limited use, when I built this I used a KT 10 and after that 3 KB 5 for the 60, 120 180 positions and KT 5 for the rest of the guides. My question is would it perform better if I used a KT 5.5 for the 60 degree position and then 2 KB for the 120 and 180 and rest KT. The reason I went with all the runners after the stripper was I read it in RodMaker in the simple spiral article. Then I got to thinking maybe that was just for the simple spiral, so I thought I would ask here. What are your thoughts and opinions. Thank you.

Keith Langford



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2020 07:41AM by Keith Langford.

The line is only going to hit the guide ring at a single point so the rest of the ring diameter is really of no consequence. Take another rod blank and mock it up both ways, cast it and see what you think.

Do keep in mind that the Simple Spiral has no transition guides, but even then, I think you're going to find that what you suggest isn't going to make a hill of beans difference.

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Thank you Tom, really like your magazine and videos by the way.

Does the geometry of a spiral guide train cause an increase in friction between guides and line? Do tournament distance casters use spiral guide trains?

If you cast a spiral and a conventional rod, you will be hard pressed to find any casting difference. There's simply not much friction between the line and the guides on a cast.

Tournament casters are not worried about torque or twist upon retrieve so the spiral wrap offers them no benefit. Claims that a spiral wrap will outcast a convention rod are not true. The benefits to the spiral wrap are almost entirely from the standpoint of retrieve and fish fighting.

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They look interesting. Are spiral guides catching on with big fish/salt water anglers?

Yes, probably since 20 years ago. The bigger the fish the greater the benefit.

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Acid Wrap is the term I hear on the West Coast for the spiral wrapped saltwater rods, been around a long time like Tom said.

The "wrap" was patented around 1909 by a gentleman named John Scanlan. In the late 70's or early 80's it was popularized again by a rod builder with the last name of "Roberts" and for many years was known simply as a "Roberts Wrap." Rich Forhan made it part of his Revolver Rod design in the 90's. There have been many variations of the concept over this past century.

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and the last to come out was the Kirkman Wrap or Simple Spiral which he introduced in Rod Maker magazine some dozen or more years ago..the Simple Spiral took all the mystery out of making the Wrap..

Keith Langford Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rod I just built is working great and i really
> like it so far with the limited use, when I built
> this I used a KT 10 and after that 3 KB 5 for the
> 60, 120 180 positions and KT 5 for the rest of the
> guides. My question is would it perform better if
> I used a KT 5.5 for the 60 degree position and
> then 2 KB for the 120 and 180 and rest KT. The
> reason I went with all the runners after the
> stripper was I read it in RodMaker in the simple
> spiral article. Then I got to thinking maybe that
> was just for the simple spiral, so I thought I
> would ask here. What are your thoughts and
> opinions. Thank you.

The bumper guides are just to keep the line off the blank so they do not need to be that tall. For me I position them to keep the line straight as possible going from the top of blank to the bottom. They cast equal to guides on top and I think they are better for micro guides. With a micro guide running train and smaller stripper guides your are getting rapid reduction and control of the line wave sooner so in general rods built like this will cast farther whether spiral or conventional. I am not a competative caster but I do not think they use rods that are made to be fished.

Too large a line-to-leader connection will hang up on too small a guide. What's the largest size leader to line connection a micro guide will accommodate?

Hello Phil Ew.

It depends on the size of your guide, your line, and how well you tie a knot.


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Lance Schreckenbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keith Langford Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The rod I just built is working great and i
> really
> > like it so far with the limited use, when I
> built
> > this I used a KT 10 and after that 3 KB 5 for
> the
> > 60, 120 180 positions and KT 5 for the rest of
> the
> > guides. My question is would it perform better
> if
> > I used a KT 5.5 for the 60 degree position and
> > then 2 KB for the 120 and 180 and rest KT. The
> > reason I went with all the runners after the
> > stripper was I read it in RodMaker in the
> simple
> > spiral article. Then I got to thinking maybe
> that
> > was just for the simple spiral, so I thought I
> > would ask here. What are your thoughts and
> > opinions. Thank you.
>
> The bumper guides are just to keep the line off
> the blank so they do not need to be that tall. For
> me I position them to keep the line straight as
> possible going from the top of blank to the
> bottom. They cast equal to guides on top and I
> think they are better for micro guides. With a
> micro guide running train and smaller stripper
> guides your are getting rapid reduction and
> control of the line wave sooner so in general rods
> built like this will cast farther whether spiral
> or conventional. I am not a competative caster but
> I do not think they use rods that are made to be
> fished.

There were no bumper guides on the rod that Keith outlined. Just regular transition guides. And no rod would ever need more than one bumper guide.

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I was hoping someone had established this fact already, but it's probably better to discover it for myself. That way I won't have to run an assortment of knots tied on a an assortment of lines and leaders to find what I need to know, just one number: the diameter of the knot. Like many rod builders my kit includes a micrometer.

Wasn't it Bill Colby that introduced the Simple Spiral to us?

He wrote an article about it. He did not come up with the concept. The term "Bumper Guide" was his but I never liked it - too much confusion over just what that is. In the recent updated article I renamed it a "rub prevention guide." I think that better outlines what it is and what it does.


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I was thinking to call it a By-Pass guide but then thought that sounded too much like a type of surgery..Rub-preventio-guide it is. my nephew got a new cat after the last ate a toad...i have a bad habit of renaming things..they named it Squigly..it,s an all black cat with emerald colored eyes..anyway i called him Shady(what else?)..i mean did you ever see a cat respond to a name, but i think it bothered some people that i called him Shady..Shady didn,t care..lol.

OK, replace bumper guide with rub prevention guide, of course a while back you were calling it a bumper guide when others were calling it a transition guide. Whatever we call it, we seem to know what it is. I do not like a simple spiral on a rod longer than 6'6". My thought is that if I can get the 1st 180 degree guide behind the major arc of the rod then the rod will work better for fighting fish and if I can keep the line straighter and off the blank (2 bumper guides), it will cast farther. So far it has worked out and the performance of my rods is where I and my customers like it. I personally use mostly a (style) KT 4mm rings for running trains and have not had any problems with passing a Uni Knot with a 15 lbs fluorocarbon leader to 20# braid. To help, I do however, use a 4.5mm tip top with the 4mm running train and 5mm tip top with a 4.5mm running train. Hey, we are always learning and it is good for everybody, including myself, to change if it will work better.

A bumper guide is not and never has been a "transition" guide. It does not transition the line anywhere. Two entirely different purposes. Recently someone mentioned that he had used a 0-60-120-180 set up and called the transition guides, bumper guides. That is an impossibility on such a set-up. This was my point.

Bumper guide, or better put, Rub Prevention Guide, is not a transition guide and does not serve the same purpose. Two entirely different animals.

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