I
nternet gathering place for custom rod builders
  • Custom Rod Builders - This message board is provided for your use by the sponsors listed on the left side of the page. Feel free to post any question, answers or topics related in any way to custom building. When purchasing products please remember those who sponsor this board.

  • Manufacturers and Vendors - Only board sponsors are permitted and encouraged to promote and advertise products on the board. You may become a sponsor for a nominal fee. It is the sponsor fees that pay for this message board.

  • Rules - Rod building is a decent and rewarding craft. Those who participate in it are assumed to be civilized individuals who are kind and considerate in their dealings with others. Please respond to others in the same fashion in which you would like to be responded to. Registration IS NOW required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting. Posts which are inflammatory, insulting, or that fail to include a proper name and email address will be removed and the persons responsible will be barred from further participation.

    Registration is now required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting.
SPONSORS

ICRBE 2020
EXPO ON FACEBOOK
CCS Database
Int. Custom Rod Symbol
Common Cents Info
American Tackle
Anglers Rsrc - Fuji
Anglers Workshop
BatsonRainshadowALPS
BRC Rods
Cork Specialties LLC
CRB
HNL Rod Blanks–CTS
CTS New Zealand
Custom Fly Grips LLC
Decal Connection
Flex Coat Co.
Get Bit Outdoors
Hitena USA
HYDRA
Janns Netcraft
Mickels Custom Rods
Mudhole Custom Tackle
MHX Rod Blanks
North Fork Composites
Pacific Bay
ProProducts
REC Components
ReelSeatBlanks.com
Renzetti Inc.
Rod Builders Warehouse
RodHouse France
RodMaker Magazine
RodMaker Blog
Schneiders Rod Shop
SeaGuide Corp.
Tackleworks
The Rod Room
Trondak U-40
Utmost Enterprises
VisualWRAP/VisualWEAVE
ZipCast

guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 20, 2020 09:40AM

Hi...hope you all are healthy and happy and staying safe! I have a question about guide spacing...more guides vs less guides on a spinning rod. What is the benefit, if any of using more guides? I read some recommendations where they recommend 6 guides and others 10 guides. I am just starting a build on a North Forks IM 2 piece spinning blanks and they recommend 6 guides. I'm not necessarily the guy that believes "more is better" but thought more would keep the line flowing straighter on a cast. Can someone please school me on this one? Thanks! Todd

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 20, 2020 09:52AM

The best scenario is to use the correct number of guides, and that is going to depend upon the particular blank you're working with.

More guides means better stress distribution along the blank length, but there is no reason to go beyond what is actually necessary. If you know how to perform a static distribution test then you can easily find the correct number of guides needed.

As general rule of thumb - you are apt to need a number of guides that equals the length of the rod in feet, plus one and a tiptop. So a 7 foot rod should be doable with 8 guides and a tiptop. This typically holds true until you get up to the really big surf or very heavy saltwater spinning outfits where a couple less is adequate. Do keep in mind that modern guides are so much lighter than their predecessors from a few years ago so there is little penalty to pay in using more rather than fewer.

...........

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 20, 2020 10:18AM

Thanks Tom! I have generally used 8 guides but MHX has a 10 guide recommendation on their blanks. I have built on one North Forks blank. They recommended 6 guides and I used 8 plus the tip top. I like the load with 8.

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 20, 2020 10:56AM

Sounds like you know what you're doing.

........

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 20, 2020 11:12AM

Grazie!! I value all of the comments and experience you all have. I love to learn from those that actually do the job. Thanks.

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: May 20, 2020 11:39AM

Todd,
You need one guide in front of the reel and you need at least one more guide 2/3rds of the way up the rod and you need a tip top.

After that - use only enough guides to insure that the line follows the contour of the loaded blank.

From a casting perspective - adding more guides really doesn't help at all. The reason for this is that on a cast, the rod load up and as the end of the cast is made and the lure begins to accelerate toward its target, the rod becomes essentially straight.

So, at that point the line is shooting off the reel through any guides and out the tip top of the rod.

Hence the reason that distance casters tend to have very very few guides on the rod.

Loading the blank heavily while fighting a fish is a different story. In this case the rod may be bent up to 90 degrees, and to handle the load, it is the best idea to have all parts of the blank to share the load. This is done by insuring that you have JUST ENOUGH guides on the rod - to insure that all parts of the blank share the load.

There is 0 to be gained by adding guides and in fact it will hurt the performance of the rod by making it heavier and potentially causing some drag on the cast.

So, if in doubt about a particular guide - leave it out, rather than leave it in.

A very common thing for folks who are just starting to build rods is to put more guides on a rod in the mistaken belief that the more guides the better.

The belief should be like Goldilocks and the three bears.

You want just enough guides to make it the best rod. Not too few, nor not too many guides.



When thinking about guide placement, you can just consider this: If the blank never bends in a particular location, there is normally not a reason to have a guide in that part of the blank.

You only need to have a guide on a particular blank location if - when loaded - that part of the blank is experiencing bending.

Best wishes.

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 20, 2020 12:22PM

Great info Roger. That actually answered one of my questions. Thanks!

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: May 20, 2020 08:34PM

if your rod has ten guides and a ten pound load is put on the rod, each guide on average is carrying a one pound load on average..now run the line through every other guide and load it wth ten pounds again, each of the five guides will be carrying a two pound load on average..the point is for every guide you remove the other guides have to pick up the slack and carry a bigger load..these guide loads put stress on the gaps between each guide and if the gaps get longer and there is less guide support, they may flex to the breaking point..this can especially occure during a hook set or a big fish surging for cover..i think it,s best to have this extra guide protection in reserve for these occasions..a guide or two extra.is not that much considering how small and light they are in this day and age..i don,t think a seven foot rod with nine or ten guides is over doing it..

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: May 20, 2020 10:55PM

i forgot to mention that if i was using any low stretch braids, i for sure would be using 9 or 10 guides on a graphite rod or even glass..

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 21, 2020 09:02AM

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if your rod has ten guides and a ten pound load is
> put on the rod, each guide on average is carrying
> a one pound load on average..now run the line
> through every other guide and load it wth ten
> pounds again, each of the five guides will be
> carrying a two pound load on average..the point is
> for every guide you remove the other guides have
> to pick up the slack and carry a bigger
> load..these guide loads put stress on the gaps
> between each guide and if the gaps get longer and
> there is less guide support, they may flex to the
> breaking point..this can especially occure during
> a hook set or a big fish surging for cover..i
> think it,s best to have this extra guide
> protection in reserve for these occasions..a guide
> or two extra.is not that much considering how
> small and light they are in this day and age..i
> don,t think a seven foot rod with nine or ten
> guides is over doing it..

Not really true - as you add more and more load to a rod, the blank straightens from the tip back, transferring more and more load down the rod towards the butt. If you have ten guides on a rod and hang 10 pounds from the tip, the top-most guides would be hard pressed to carry more than a very few ounces each. The guides near the butt would be carrying most of the load.

..........

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 21, 2020 09:52AM

Todd, you mention in the original post about line "flowing straighter through the guides on the cast." The rod is essentially straight on the cast so the number of guides isn't an issue, IMO. At least I have never been able to correlate casting performance with adding or subtracting a guide or two from the rod length + 1 recommendation.

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: May 21, 2020 11:22AM

yes, the load is transfered from the tip to the butt..by adding guides all the other guides have to be repositioned which shortens all the gaps between each guide..this is the ireason for adding guides..since the weakest points on a rod are located in the middle of each of these gaps, you are reducing the size of each gap on the rod..shorter gaps are stronger gaps..also with shorter gaps you will get quicker smoother transfer of load from the tip to the butt guides..this is especially helpful if using a low stretch braid because they deliver hook sets faster and stronger than any other kind of line..we all know that everything we do to build a rod involves some kind of trade-off..is the trade worth it? in this case for a couple extra guides, i think it is..you may not think it is..your choice..

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 21, 2020 11:24AM

Thank you all for your info! I love reading opinions of the experienced although it can be confusing. After reading and doing a lot of thinking...I develop my opinion and try it out. Thanks to all!!

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 21, 2020 11:29AM

OK...here's a question...what would possibly be the results of using the spacing recommendation of a casting build on a spinning build of the same length? I have nine Fuji SIC guides. Sizes 25,16,10,8,6,6,6,6,6 then the tip top. I haven't been able to find a spacing rec. for spinning rod with 9 guides. I don't fish or build casting rods but know the guides run on top of the blank. Comments?

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 21, 2020 12:26PM

It would work to some extent but might not be optimum based on the spinning reel spool diameter. Spinning reels are different animals and the line is brought under control a bit differently.

.........

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 21, 2020 12:35PM

I figured there has got to be some physics involved with it...the line is sliding on the opposite area of the guide on a casting rod vs a spinning rod. I will just stick with 8 guides on this 6' 6" stick. Thanks! you all stay safe and sane. I just keep building rods to keep me busy. My wife is starting to get a little annoyed when she looks at the credit card statement!

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: May 21, 2020 04:09PM

Todd,
In a couple of words.
The line flows straight off a casting reel and there is little need for any sort of very large guide to tame the rod.

But for a casting rod with a conventional wrap - i.e. the line running along the top of the rod, you have a line on the blank issue.

If you don't care about the line touching the blank or going under the blank, you can use a few micro guides and you will be fine. However, with the line rubbing on the blank the blank is not likely be be equally loaded, and with constant abrasion on the rod blank, you will run off the finish on the blank where ever it touches. But there is one school of folks who like to let the line rub on the blank to add another friction element to help slow a big fish.

Or you could use very tall casting guides and only a few of them and that would minimize line rubbing at the expense of additional guide weight.

---
Conversely, a Spinning reel with the line coming off of the spool in significantly large loops needs a large stripper guide to began to corral the loops in the line. Then, the progressive guides need to work down to a smaller guide to get the line running straight and true through the running guides.

Take care

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 21, 2020 04:27PM

Thanks Roger and all of you schooling me. I always have questions and its great to be able to ask!

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: May 21, 2020 07:10PM

Todd, build a rod but put a standard number of the guides on without epoxy, only cp and fish it for a good while to get a good feel for it,s nature then take the guides off and add 2 or 3 runners with new spacing and just cp..fish for a while and learn it,s nature...you will gain an understanding about guides than all the reading on this site..you got to experience the feel of the fish surging during a fight..the transfer of the load up and down the rod and how quickly the load is transfered..this is all greatly influenced by the number of guides and their position..all rods cast far enough and are accurate enough but the test of the puddin' is when hooked up to a nice fish and you feel in control of the situation because you built a mean fighting rod..lol.

Re: guide spacing
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: May 22, 2020 07:04PM

I like that Ben! thanks! I like mean fighting everything.

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Webmaster