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Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Greg Scharping (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: April 20, 2020 10:22AM

I have a couple GT blanks to build up for my 1st venture at GT fishing next year: a Phenix Magalodon MPX800H (poppers) and a Bushido BP86400 (stickbaits). For guides I was planning on using a Fuji KWSG 50, Am.Tackle Virtus NIRLVH 40, 25, 20...12. Looking thru rod catalogs I see a lot of rods where the 1st & 2nd guides are reversed but they don't appear to be Fuji reverse guides. I need some coaching regarding the 1st two guides. I like the snagless feature of KWSG and my concern is that this is defeated with a reversed guide. Also, I don't see reverse guides available in larger ring sizes and I really wanted to use a 50 ring to begin the guide train (using my trolling spinners TRQS9 and SW30000 - big coils coming off these reels). Thanks.

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: April 20, 2020 01:10PM

Greg,
One thing is for sure.

If all guide are put on the rod in the same direction the rod will cast, catch fish and do the job for which it was designed.

If you wish to reverse one or more of the guides, by all means do so.

This is CUSTOM rod building.

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 20, 2020 01:45PM

There are a handful of guides that can less tangle prone when mounted in reverse. Others say it reduces line slap against the guide frame. Some anglers find it helpful, others have never noticed any difficulty.

Here's what you might try - mount the guides (tape or whatever) and go out and do some test casting. Try the butt guide mounted in both directions and see if you find it worthwhile, or not.

............

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: April 20, 2020 03:38PM

Greg,
If the guide ring is 90* from the blank, the stripper in particular, many can be mounted in reverse to eliminate any line slap on the legs. I have done so with Fuji HBs and LCs and it works very well, although admittedly unknowing if better than mounted conventionally. It is similar in theory to the RVs. However, all the KWs I have used (up to size 20) feature a (forward) sloped ring and I would think reversing them would be detrimental = tangle-enhancing rather than tangle-free. Although you mention “big coils coming off these reels”, a size 50 KW seems too big for a 3000 size reel, especially if using braid.
Those are my apprentice views and will follow this topic for veteran opinions.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 20, 2020 04:52PM

If your line is hitting the guide legs, your butt guide spacing, sizing, etc., is way, way off.

..........

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Greg Scharping (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: April 20, 2020 05:28PM

Mark, thanks for identifying the non RV guides used for reverse mounting. The KWs have too much slant to reverse, the inquiry was as much to see if the reverse stripper made it stronger or if it was to prevent slap. Sounds like it is slap so I'll go with the big KW. You dropped a zero on the reel. It's 30000 which is the biggest Stella, probably one size too big for slinging big poppers & stickbaits all day. Thanks for your input

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Greg Scharping (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: April 20, 2020 05:32PM

Tom, I'm not experiencing line slap, was just wondering why an expensive Japanese GT rod reversed the first two butt guides. But now that you've brought up line slap and butt guide spacing, would slap come from the butt guide being too close to the reel or too far? I'm always learning.

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: April 20, 2020 05:55PM

Greg,
You are correct; I missed a zero. Maybe improvise a hula hoop for the stripper LOL. I have never experienced line slap with any of my builds or store-boughts either for that matter. I was simply repeating what I have read. In that case, I suppose the RVs could re-reversed!!! Maybe Fuji got it all wrong!!! The reason I reversed the first couple HBs and LCs was simply because I could and liked the uncommon look. It is kind of fun responding to deckhands inquiring why the guides are on backwards = are they?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 20, 2020 06:23PM

Line slap can occur for at least 3 different reasons - butt guide too close to reel; butt guide too far from reel (most often) and butt guide to low to rod blank (line slap on blank mostly).

And there is a 4th reason - if the ring diameter is overlarge, the line isn't coming under quick control and the line will slap (usually the blank).


.............

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Greg Scharping (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: April 20, 2020 10:23PM

Thanks Tom
Typically I set the butt guide in the range recommended by Dale Clemens from his Advanced Custom Rod Building Book (this rod builder's bible) and I've never experienced line slap. But with Fuji making such a fuss about their reverse torzite guides, and then seeing reverse butt guides on Yamaga GT rods I figured I was missing something; after all, Dale's bible is pretty old. But thanks to the feedback from this thread I'm sticking with tried and proven.

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Greg Scharping (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: April 20, 2020 10:27PM

Mark,
Consider me a deck hand which is why I started this thread. Good to hear that you've been pleased with your reverse butt guide rods. I'm not going to try it on the GT blanks but did get a killer @#$%& deal for some torzite RVs from Singapore. Will give it a go on a steelhead blank I'm building up. If it works well I won't know if it was the torzite rings or the RV - I'll just be happy. Thanks for posting on this thread.

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: charles nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: April 21, 2020 03:33AM

Fuji RV's especially in the 25 and 20 sizes are what Fuji refers to as the double foot version of their high frame single foot KL-H models . The RV's like the Fuji LC guides are the only models purposely designed to be wrapped reversed which means having a single leg facing the reel spool and the two legs facing the tip of the rod. They are purposely designed to prevent " Blow by" when using Big Pit style super fast dispensing spinning reels like the Shimano Aero Technium's and Daiwa Basia's which when paired with the right rod generate incredible line speeds.

There is no KW guides or any other that i'm aware of that was purposely designed to be reversed except the Fuji LC and RV guides . It should also be noted that you will find only the first two guides reversed on reduction trains that utilize the RV and LC style guides . Typically an RV 25 and then an RV 16 which then transitions into a Fuji 12M or 10M which were also purposely designed to fit guide trains that use the RV's guides .

The regular Fuji KW 12's and KW 10's weren't designed for the RV setups but the 12M and 10M are. The reason for that is the KW M versions are much better matched in height with the RV's larger guides than the regular KW 12 and 10 . Some use the 12M and 10M together but that's a far less than optimal choice, pick one or the other based on which one has better height to match the guides before it . The main reason i never use both is because the ring sizes are so close in diameter there is just no real benefit in using both .

The KW guides are also a snagless design and work just fine for most but i wouldn't go anywhere near a size 50 ring with a Stella . Stella's do not throw overly large coils even with heavier braid , that reels propulsion spool lip design and advanced oscillation will perform the best by dropping down to a considerably smaller stripper . A 30 is even over sized for that reel with up to 65 pound braid . A 25 size ring would be ideal but no larger that a size 30 stripper for best possible performance .

Don't believe it , tape on the guides and go cast with a 50 or 40 size KW stripper and then go cast with a RV 25 or LC reversed 20 .

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Bob Ginther (162.245.179.---)
Date: April 21, 2020 09:42AM

Charles, what do you mean by "blow by"? Line coming off the spool going past the guide ring before going through it? And if using a wide spool reel Like a Shimano Aero Technium (75mm spool diameter) is the RV 25H going to prevent blowby better than a KW30 as a stripper guide? I anticipate your answer is yes based on your previous post, but why does the smaller ring prevent blowby better than a larger ring? That seems counter-intuitive to me (but I am an amateur just learning this stuff.)

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: April 21, 2020 12:34PM

A higher, smaller ring is a design feature that controls the line coils faster. It's about the combination of spool, height, position and line. You can "blow by" a 25 just as fast as 30 with bad position or the wrong reel spool or height. The smaller, higher ring will "manage" things faster IF it's in the right position and the line is coming off the proper spool. KR Concept is all about maximizing the efficiency of the relationship between reel, line and blank.

The RV is a reverse guide, yes. But the design is as much about shortening the footprint of a true double-foot KR guide and maintaining the tangle-free feature of a true K-series guide as it is about line slap on frame legs.

Mr Nash is spot on, including his feelings about a size 50 KW - LOL!

One last point. You can go too far. There are still plenty of situations where the default layout would be best served by the New Guide Concept.

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: April 21, 2020 03:36PM

Very well said Charles and, of course Mr. Fuji, Jim. One question for both of you; why can’t any guide with a 90* ring be reversed? I am here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 21, 2020 05:44PM

Any guide with a 90-degree ring angle can be reversed. But in many if not most cases you won't gain anything by doing so.

........

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Greg Scharping (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: April 22, 2020 09:14AM

Thanks for the info on reduction trains Charles. I think one thing that got confused on this thread is the reel size. The Stella is a 30000, not a 3000. On the two reels I'll be using 130# and 150# braid. The lures will be between 110g to 190g. Drag will likely be in the 35lb range (don't think I can hold much more on an 8ft rod). The spool lip diameter on a TRQS 9 is 3.15". On the Stella it is 3.74". My concern in starting this thread wasn't so much about preventing line slap as it was about guide strength - were the 1st two guides on the Yamaga GT rod I was using as a reference reversed for strength of was it for line slap, and/or improved casting distance via the RT reduction train. Since all the guides on these GT popping rods will be titanium I was opting for a KW50 stripper to handle the big coils/snagless feature and because it is beefy. The remaining guides would be heavy Virtus. I'll tape guides on and do some experimenting once the weather warms up, but given the reel size/lure weight/braid do you still think a size 30 stripper is appropriate?

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: April 22, 2020 10:24AM

Agreed, performance on a 90-degree ring faced either direction will be the same. But, it bears mention that guide feet are most likely designed with particular forces in mind. Please don't ask me the variance in strength between the "folded" side of, say, a KW foot on the double frame leg side vs the single frame leg side. All I'm suggesting is that, at some point, the designers probably considered "foot forces".

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: April 22, 2020 03:06PM

Tom and Jim,
Thank you for answering my question = understood, accepted and agreed.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Why Reverse 1st Guide on GT Popping Rod
Posted by: Euan Anderson (---)
Date: May 16, 2020 12:07PM

Hi Greg,

I know I'm late to this post and you may have made your choices by now. I built 2 GT rods back in '14 for myself, like yourself, one for popping (BH 8' Graphite ) paired with a Stella 18000 and one for stickbaits (BH 8' nano) paired with a Saltiga 5500 expedition, since then several others on the same blanks for fishing buddies. I have fished them Oman, East Africa, Vanuatu and NZ, landed several beasts and still going strong, these are some of my observations that may help you.

I used 40,30 25,20,16. Fuji MNAG. The 40 stripper had worked just fine. Interestingly I have found the larger spool casts better as I find the line comes off more lazier and straightens quicker that when it comes off in tighter more energized coil from a smaller spool, I still find that counterintuitive.

My main concern was not so much the line slap at the stripper but getting a 200lb leader and FG through the guide train efficiently on casts so opted to keep the running guides a little larger for that reason. I ended up opting rather too spool hollow braid with a short leader outside the tiptop and fish knotless, which is so much better (and quieter), in hindsight if I had known that I would have reduced the running guides a bit, but for a longer leader and FG set-up I would keep them as is.

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