I just read the article from the library, is this the best way to lay out the guides for a rapid reduction system on a spinning rod, freshwater shaky head or drop shot rod. I want to learn the best practices for my rod building. Thank you.and forgive me if this question has been beat to death, I am brand new at this with only one rod under my belt and I just used the spacing guide from Fuji and then loaded the rod and looked at the line coming through the blanks to make sure it was not touching the blank and no sharp angles ( video from Mudhole) and for the reel seat location I just copied the length on my favorite spinning rod ( JB Customs).

Keith Langford

it is one of the top 3 best!

The new guide concept (NGC) is not a rapid reduction (choke) system. The KR concept is based on the NGC but uses smaller ring higher frame guides to rapidly choke the line to small low profile guides. It works extremely well with braid for which it was designed. Anglers Resource has an article on the theory of the KR concept. [anglersresource.net]
It also has KR GPS (guide placement software) for laying out the guides for a KR concept spin rod. [anglersresource.net]
Norm

Thank you both Steve and Norman. Norman I will be using braid( 10 LB ) with fluorocarbon leader on this rod would the rapid reduction be the best choice. Steve what are the other 2 top 3. Norman thank you for the angler resource link, I will be using that for sure.

Keith Langford

With a spinning rod, I would use a tall #16 guide, then a conventional size 12 and go to size 5.5 runners to the tip. Cap it with a 5.5 tip top.

Good luck

So Roger, My blank is 7'2" , the system you described above would that be rapid reduction or new guide concept, also I thought the butt guide had to be 1/2 the diameter of the spool, in this case a Diawa Tatula 3000, man I have a lot to learn.

If you are going to be using light braid then definitely try the KR concept, it is the best I’ve ever used. What size reel are you planing on using? If you are using a size 1000 to 3000 reel then you could certainly use a reduction train consisting of Fuji KL16H, KL8H, and KL5.5M guides followed by KB/KT runners in a size of your choice (ie 5.5, 5, 4.5, or 4). The runners will all be the same size. Use one to three KB runners after the reduction train followed by KT runners to the tip. KB (belly) guides have a wider and longer foot to help resist pullout forces generated in the belly of the rod when fully loaded. KT (tip) guides have a shorter and narrower foot and are used in the tip section of the rod where the pull out forces are much less. If you will be using a 3000 to 5000 reel and/or heavier line you can use a reduction train of KL20H, KL10H, and KL5.5M guides, followed by your KB/KT guides. For most of the rods I build I use mainly size 4.5 or 5 runners, and on some rod I will use size 4 runners. Learn how to tie the FG knot, it is the thinnest and strongest knot for connecting a leader to braid.
Norm

So Norman, the 16 would be the first guide closest to the reel or butt guide I believe it's called

PS - The height of the guide is more important than ring size. For example, a KL20H guide is about the same height as the commonly used size 30 V-type guide, and about the same as a size 25 Y-type guide used for NGC builds. Forget about the ring size being half the diameter of the reel spool. The smaller ring is important for rapidly choking the line and actually enhances performance, in my opinion.
Norm
Yes, the KL16H or KL20H would be the butt guide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2020 01:36PM by Norman Miller.

Thank you Norman

Keith,
Both Roger and Norman are highly respected veterans and have built zillions of perfectly performing rods and I strongly suggest you consider all they have to say on any aspect of rod building. They are pretty much saying the same thing here about the reduction train. Roger =”tall #16, then a conventional size 12 and go to size 5.5 runners to the tip”. With “H” standing for “high”, Norman suggests the KR Concept which would be KL-16H, KL-8H, KL-5.5M and then KBs followed by KTs your size choice out to the tip top. The only difference yet similarity is that Roger’s conventional size 12 is probably fairly close in height to Norman’s KL-8H. Either system will work exceptionally well. Personally, I would use the Fujis because all the guides are designed to work together as a unit and is much simpler than attempting to find the correct height of other guides. The GPS software from AR will specify the reduction guide train spacing and then simply static load test the blank for the placement of the runners. You will not find a better performing rod.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Keith make sure you're using the KR GPS. You will love this guide train.

Yes on Lynn's comment-there are two softwares there and only one works for the KLH guides, and it's the KR guide placement software. I only use the KLH reduction guides on my spin, use the KR software, and the guide spacing method on the Anglers Resource site. And I don't even bother test casting any more because when I have I've never been able to improve the rod. I would use 4's or 4.5's for runners. I see no reason for using 5.5 runners on a rod like this.

Fly rod guides haven't evolved much since the old ring-and-keeper guides were replaced by snake guides more than 100 years ago. Other than smaller running guides and a faster reduction in size from the gathering guide to the running guides what are the significant physical changes in the structure of spin-rod guides in the last 50 years?

Thank all of you for the help. I can definitely use all I can get, especially when it comes from Professionals at their craft. I am sure I will have a bunch more questions.

NEVER mix the KR Concept with the New Guide Concept. It causes the dreaded malady known as "RLP" (Rod Layout Paralysis).

Phil Ew.,
While ring insert material “alloys” and frames stamped from a single piece of sheet metal rather than welded or soldered frames have produced superior present guides, the higher frames (utilizing smaller rings) is probably the biggest performance enhancer. Although higher frame “Match” guides have been around for quite a while, Fuji’s R&D has afforded us with the KR Concept which is a real game-changer = profound performance enhancer. Of course, the unique MicroWave guides deserved to mentioned as well, but none the less I prefer the KR Concept.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Jim,
I expect that if a person were on a deserted island and need to catch a fish, he could build a rod with a dozen guide types and have a rod that would catch fish just fine.

It would not be an optimum rod, or necessarily a great performing rod - but there would be no doubt that it would be able to catch a fish.

Be safe

Is the improved performance in accuracy, or distance, or both, or some other qualities? A newbie rod builder asked me what guides to buy and I couldn't honestly answer him - or advise him. I haven't built a spinning rod in over a decade.

Casting performance between nearly any and all of the modern systems is going to be roughly the same. I doubt you'd fine 15 difference in casting distance between any of them. A given rod is only going to cast a given weight so far.

Conversely, if you are able to reduce the weight of the guides the rod has to carry, the rod will react and recover a bit more quickly and perhaps balance more to your liking as well. So reducing the control guides sooner and being able to move to small, lightweight running guides more quickly, should quicken rod speed and improve balance. But again, we'd be talking a miniscule difference between any of the modern systems assuming each has been properly employed.

...........