While I'm waiting for my NFC MB736 XRay to come in, I'm trying to figure out the guide train. I haven't decided on whether I'll spiral wrap it or not, but I'm considering both options for now. I've read through more than a few posts on the forum, but haven't read much on using the newer KR concept guides for spiral wrapping. Here are the options that I'm debating...

Reel Setup
-30 lb Daiwa J-Braid x8 to 15 ft of 8-10lb co-poly leader
-Alberto Knot with 8-10 turns down and 8-10 turns up

I've yet to learn to tie the FG knot, hence my use of size 5 guides instead of 4.5; I'm scared. I use around 15 ft of leader, because I'm too lazy to tie connection knots on the water. I really haven't had any significant issues with casting even with the connection knot in the reel.

Guides on Top Configuration
-TRVTG Torzite RV Guide Size 6
-TKWSG55 or TKBSG55 Guide Size 5.5
-TKBSG5 x 3 SiC KB Belly Guides Size 5
-TKTSG5 x 5 SiC KT Running Guides Size 5
-TKGTT55 LG Torzite Tiptop Size 5.5

Modified Simple Spiral at -5, 90(ish), 180 Configuration
-TKWSG10 KW Double Foot SiC Guide Size 10 at -5
-TKWSG6 KW Double Foot or TKBSG6 KB Single Foot Size 6 at 90(ish whatever location keeps the line off the blank)
-TKBSG5 x 3 SiC KB Belly Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKTSG5 x 4 SiC KT Running Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKGTT55 or TKGST55 Torzite or SiC Tiptop Size 5.5 at 180

or a Modified Revolver -5, 60, 120, 180 Configuration
-TKWSG10 KW Double Foot SiC Guide Size 10 at -5
-TKBSG6 x 2 KB Single Foot Size 6 at 60 and 120
-TKBSG5 x 2 SiC KB Belly Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKTSG5 x 4 SiC KT Running Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKGTT55 or TKGST55 Torzite or SiC Tiptop Size 5.5 at 180

Do any or all these setups make sense? I've only built one casting rod, and I spiral wrapped it using the modified simple spiral method. It was a kit from GetBitOutdoors, and I HAD to spiral wrap it, because they didn't include all the guides in the kit. So either I was going to be left with a rod that had line that dipped below the blank under load, or a spiral wrapped rod. I don't love the rod, but I think that has more to do with the price of the components rather than the spiral wrapping, since the whole kit is around 30 or 40 bucks.

I like the idea of spiral wrap for a couple of reasons. It'll help with the balance of the longer rod(7'3" is a long rod for me) and since I tend to have the rod tip up for most of my presentations, it'll be less fatiguing. I've also observed less tip wrap when using braid with my spiral wrapped rod. I don't think torsion really matters for a bass rod rated up to 1oz, and I'm not catching 15lb fish that run, I'm catching 3-5lb max, and large mouth really don't fight that hard anyways. I can't really see much disadvantage to a spiral wrapped rod other than that it looks funky to some people.

Sorry for the long write-up, but this new hobby is scratching my itch during this shelter in place order. I love tinkering, and I'm glad to have a great resource online that I can go to for questions. Thanks and Stay Safe!

Paul

Edit: Model Numbers



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 11:17PM by Paul Park.

Paul,
There is another option.

Just use taller running guides and you don't have any problems with a line running below a guide if wrapping a casting rod in a conventional way.

Sure, shorter guides weigh a touch less. But for the average fisherman, does a touch more weight really make any difference to them?

---
If I were going with a spiral wrap, it would be exactly the setup that you have listed for the modified revolver. I have used this configuration for many rods and have never had any issues with that particular guide setup.

Before setting the final alignment of the stripper or first guide, I like to do a test run on the guide setup.

I will mount the reel, pull line off of the reel and thread the line through all of the guides and tip top. Then, I pull off about 100 feet of line and let it stack on the floor. Then, I just use my stocking foot to apply a bit of pressure to the line as I reel it back onto the reel. I pay careful attention to the way that the line is stacking on the reel. If the line is stacking on the right side of the reel, I will realign the stripper guide about 5 degrees to the left - as viewed from the top of the rod and then repeat the test. If, on the other hand, I find that line is stacking on the left side of the reel, I will realign the stripper guide about 5 degrees to the left - as viewed from the top.

I will continue this slight angular movement of the stripper guide - either right or left as required to minimize line stacking. I think that for almost all of the spiral wrapped rods that I build using the modified revolver guide alignment, I will have the stripper guide rotated in an angular direction about 5 degrees in the same direction as the direction of the guide spiral.

But, the butt or stripper guide could end up at 0 or 5 degrees in the opposite direction depending on the reel being used on the rod.


Take care



Take care

The first thing I would do, is run all the guides at 180 degrees the same size. You don't need all those different sizes.


................

Paul,
You are correct in that the benefits of a spiral wrapped rod will not be as pronounced on a lighter rod such as you are building. You are also correct that it will not hurt anything.
If you decide on the spiral, I agree with you in liking to keep the line off the blank. But you do not need a 90* bumper guide to do so and one will hold the line unnecessarily far away from the blank (especially a KW-6) forcing the line to be further from traveling in a straight path. I feel the revolver spiral is a better option; adjust/position the 60* and 120* guides so the line just misses the blank by no more than .060in. The revolver does require four guides, and thus more length of the rod, to get the line to 180* and works fine for longer rods. Spiral wrapped rods benefit from getting the line to the bottom as quickly as possible. For rods under 7.5ft consider how I set-up most of my spirals; approximate degrees = 40*, 130*, 170*, 180*. The third guide is virtually on the bottom and thus only three guides are required to get the line to the bottom. Using a level-wind reel will eliminate 95% of the line stacking on the spool. If the reel is not a level-wind, then your thumb would have been required to evenly stack the line on the spool anyway. I used to spiral to the right but have since found spiraling to the left makes it easier to push the line rather than pulling it while stacking it on the spool (I reel with the right hand and stack with the left).
Any of the guides you chose will work for either a conventional or spiral wrapped rod. However, if using a RV-6 stripper, you do not need a KW; go right to a 2 or 3 KBs followed by KTs out to the tip. If using the KWs, you might need the size 10 stripper for the height but may be able to get by with a size 8. Unless you like the looks of a second KW, go right to 2 or 3 KBs followed by KTs out to the tip. I have not built a micro spiral wrapped rod but can imagine the possibility of larger ring sizes making it easier. I have only built 20-100lb spiral rods for saltwater and on the lighter of those rods I have used KWs all the way, with a size 12 stripper.
I am interested in what other veterans have to say, especially Norman Miller who is very familiar with Fuji guides and the KR Concept.
As a side note, be careful when ordering the guides; when you were referring to KTs, you used the incorrect nomenclature of TKBSG5 rather than TKTSG5 = I do not want you to receive the wrong guides. Also, learn the FG knot; it is well worth the little extra time to tie. I will not use anything else.
Roger Wilson, if you are still following; for those concerned with even line stacking on the spool, I would think rotating the guide 5* the OPPOSITE direction of the spiral would be required due to the diameter of the ring opening and the line rubbing the side toward the spiral. But then, I am here to learn.

That knot will go thru 4.5 rings like butter. I have rods with 4's that cast 50lb. Power Pro to 17 lb. floro leader without issue. They are top to bottom with a # 4 bumper. (same Knot)

Paul,
Tinker away, that is the fun part about this hobby. I also think that a spiral is more fun to fish with and in some cases will @#$%& people off (very rewarding). You should be able to pass those knots with the 5 mm rings no problem and I am also with Tom on the sizes, RV 6, KB 5s then the rest at the thin part of the tip KT 5s. I kinda like the idea of the 1/2 size larger on the tip but with a 5 ring I don't think it is necessary. I do RV 6, KB 5, KB 4s, then KT 4s to the tip with a 4.5 mm ring and I am passing a uni to uni knot with 20 lbs braid and a 15 lbs Fluorocarbon leader, except my leader are 3' at the most to start and I won't change it till it is around 10". The uni knot is very similar to a blood knot in profile. To do a good FG knot you need to make a rig about 10" long with a post or long screw on each end. I have tried to do them by hand without the jig but it takes too long. Good luck and let us know how it turned out.
Lance

By the way, while spirals may not be the look most pleasing to the eye, they are the most efficient way. I would always go right from top to bottom with a bumper, but that's just me. That knot is very strong. Rods for tip down use I keep the guides on top.

The first thing I would say is, I hope you are ordering more running guides than you have listed in your guide train build sheet. If not, you have the potential for a delay while you're waiting for another guide to arrive. If you're impatient because of the excitement a new build brings, and you decide to build it with what you have on hand, even though you wish you had maybe that one more guide, it is always going to be in the back of your mind, that you should have ordered 1 more running guide.

As far as doing a spiral versus a conventional wrap saving weight at the tip and making the rod less fatiguing to fish goes ......with the guides you're planning on using, what type of guide train you go with, spiral or conventional, it is not going to make a difference with the MB 736 X ray blank. It is not a tip heavy blank. If you have read any threads where rod and reel balance is the topic, you will or would have seen that I am a strong proponent of having a well balanced rod for slack and semi slack line techniques. I will gladly add weight to the butt of a rod to get to it to balance, tip light. I think I mentioned in one of your threads that I have added as much as 2 3/8 oz to the butt of a rod to achieve that degree of balance. Most of the rods I've built are used for slack and semi slack line techniques, and other than one rod I built on an Immortal IMMC73ML blank, the 2 rods I built on the MB 736 X ray blanks are the only rods I have not needed to add weight to.

As far as the spiral wrap versus conventional wrap using fewer guides, this is something I have always wondered about. Even though I have never done a spiral wrapped casting rod, I have always openly questioned whether they would use fewer guides or not. So, to sooth my troubled mind, I just came back in from my garage with one of the rods I built on the MB 736 X ray blank, in hand. I placed the rod in my hand wrapper, just like I do with all of my builds when I am performing static load guide placement. Except this time I turned my conventionally wrapped casting rod, upside down. I then put a load on it just as if I were placing guides on a spinning rod. The line path is the exact line path I would have used if it were in fact, a spinning rod. So for me and the line path I prefer, A spiral wrap would not reduce the number of guides. On a conventionally wrapped casting rod I do not let the line touch the blank. On a spinning rod I want the path of the line to follow the natural curve of the blank very closely.

The guide train I have on my 2 MB 736 rods are pretty much the same as what you are considering using if you wrap the rod conventionally. The only difference is in the reduction train. I have one, you don't. I have a KW 10, followed by a KW 8, followed by a KW 6. I then go to 2 KB 5's with the remaining running guides being KT 5' I have 11 guides plus the tip top, on both rods. I used the Fuji T2 titanium with slim SIC rings on my 2 rods.

As far as Roger's suggestion of going with taller running guides to keep the line off the blank goes ... no disrespect to Roger, but that is the last thing I would do. Taller running guides are going to cause exactly what you're trying to avoid by going with a spiral wrap. Taller guides are the reason you feel the rod wanting to roll in your hand on a conventionally wrapped casting rod. It just like a longer rod gives the fish more leverage. The reason a lot of us that don't really believe bass rods benefit from a spiral wrap, is because the majority of them have shorter running guides.

Anyhow ..... no matter what guide train you go with, you are going to love that rod.

David offers good advice, I have 7ft. light tip spinning rods with 10 guides. I'm fussy about line path and blank protection.

I'm learning a lot! Thanks to everyone for the knowledge shared here. So it's looking like these are the options suggested so far

Guides on Top Configuration - 11 guides + TT
-TRVTG Torzite RV Guide Size 6
-TKBSG55 Guide Size 5.5
-TKBSG5 x 3 SiC KB Belly Guides Size 5
-TKTSG5 x 6 SiC KT Running Guides Size 5
-TKGTT55 or TKGTT5 KG Torzite Tiptop Size 5.5 or 5

Modified Simple Spiral at -5(ish), 90(ish), 180 Configuration - 10 or 11 guides + TT
-TKWSG10 KW Double Foot SiC Guide Size 10 at -5
-TKBSG6 KB Single Foot Size 6 at 90(ish whatever location keeps the line off the blank)
-TKBSG5 x 3 SiC KB Belly Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKTSG5 x 5 or 6 SiC KT Running Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKGTT55 or TKGST55 Torzite or SiC Tiptop Size 5.5 at 180

Modified Revolver #1 -5, 60, 120, 180 Configuration - 10 or 11 guides + TT
-TKWSG10 or 8 KW Double Foot SiC Guide Size 10 at -5
-TKBSG6 x 2 SiC KB Single Foot Size 6 at 60 and 120
-TKBSG5 x 2 SiC KB Belly Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKTSG5 x 5 or 6 SiC KT Running Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKGTT55 or TKGST55 Torzite or SiC Tiptop Size 5.5 at 180

Modified Revolver #2(Mark's Suggestion) 40, 130, 170, 180 Configuration w/ Level wind reel - 10 or 11 Guides + TT
-TKWSG8 KW Double Foot SiC Guide Size 8 at 40
-TKBSG6 x 3 SiC KB Single Foot Size 6 at 130, 170, 180
-TKTSG5 x 6 or 7 SiC KT Running Guides Size 5 at 180
-TKGTT55 or TKGST55 Torzite or SiC Tiptop Size 5.5 at 180

I'm using a low profile baitcaster with a level wind, but I have noticed stacking even in level wind reels in certain applications. I wanted to minimize it if possible by utilizing the -5* configuration. So if it spirals to the right, the first guide is 5* in to the left and vice versa.

Looks like I'll be buying a few KW in SS Alconite along with the Titanium RV guide to play around with the setup so I don't have to buy 3 different titanium stripper guides to test out some of these builds.

This will be the only casting rod I take to the pond along with my ML spinning rod. I usually throw light texas rigs so I'll be keeping the rod tip high 80% of the time. I tend to get a lot of tip wrap while twitching through slack line, so I thought this would be a great way to prevent tip wrap among other benefits.

I'm honestly just trying imitate to the Kistler Z Bone for about 300 dollars cheaper while using better components and exploring the possibility of spiral wrapping it. I'll be placing my order for the components Friday or Saturday since the rod is supposed to come in around then. I want to measure the actual tip top tube size and the inner diameter for the ECSM reel seat since these titanium torzite tiptops ain't cheap.

I appreciate everyone's help!
Paul

Edit: Fixed model numbers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 10:17PM by Paul Park.

Paul,
You are a good listener and seem to have taken all suggestions and advice to have all your bases covered. One thing though; you are still referring to your KTs as TKBSG5 rather than TKTSG5!!! Don’t make the mistake when ordering!!! Good luck. Many of us would appreciate an update after your build is completed. Please keep us posted.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Stil too many different guide sizes - you do not need more than one single size at all the 180 degree axis locations.

............

Mark,

My mistake on mis-labeling the KTs as the KB model names. I was copy and pasting them around and forgot to change them around.

Tom,

The size at the 180 locations are all size 5 guides except for the one from Mark's suggestion aside from a 5.5 tiptop. Are you suggesting that I run all size 5 for all guides in transition and tiptop?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 10:18PM by Paul Park.

I don't use any transition guides as I use the Simple Spiral, but even with other systems, once you get into a transition and then on to the 180 guides, you gain nothing by using all the different sizes. Use whatever butt guide you need and then move on to the smallest guide you plan to use for all the rest.

..........

Lynn, thank you ... and like you, I am very fussy about my line path for the very reason you stated. Protecting the blank. I do it the way I do because of the way I land fish at times. It was one of the things that Tom Kirkman suggested to me when I first started building rods, and I have taken it to heart.

One other benefit of having the line path follow the natural curve of the rod more closely. is you are extracting more power out of the blank. And it's definitely something you can feel.

Just received my MB 736. The blank weighs 2.2oz(2oz advertised, no big deal), and the tip is 5.5(4.5 advertised). The total length is 86.5 inches, which is half an inch shorter than the advertised 7'3" length. The concerning part is that there's a bend at the last 1 inch of tip section away from the spine of the blank and a bend about 2 to 3 feet away from the butt of the blank. I took a video of me rolling the blank with my hand on the floor. You can see that the tip section goes up and down with the rotation because the blank is not straight throughout the rod. [photos.app.goo.gl]

I've only built 3 rods and 2 of them were on Rainshadow blanks. The Immortal was completely straight, the Revelation had a very slight bend along with the spine.

Will these things be an issue with the build? Is the variance typical of NFC blanks or all blanks in general? I'm not familiar enough with these issues to know. My brain tells me to exchange it, but I wanted to check here before I contact them on Monday.

Paul

Edit: Spelling



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2020 10:07PM by Paul Park.

Paul,
For myself, the bend is not enough to worry about. If you build on the blank, put the guides on the blank with the bend either pointing up or pointing down.

That way, the user will not notice the bend at all.

However, if you put the guides on the blank so that the bend either goes right or left, the bend will be quite noticable and objectionable.

Or, return the blank and ask for a replacement.

Your choice.

Of course, whether or not you send it back is completely up to you. Personally I've only built 14 rods I think it is, so I have limited experience, but with that said, it's not unusual for a blank to have a curve in the upper portion of the blank. I've never had one that had a bend or curve in the butt section. I have had a couple that had kinks in their tips, and I sent those back for replacement. Personally when I check a blank for straightness I sight down it while holding it in front of a light back ground. If there is a curve in the blank I mark the concave side of the curve with a white china marker. I've tried rolling the blank on a flat surface, and it just didn't work for me.

As far as your concern with the "bend" in the blank;s orientation to the spine goes .... and I think you'll find that the majority of people agree, don't worry about the spine. It's really of little significance in this day and age. Plus the spine's position changes as it moves along the length of the blank. The majority of those I have read here, and on other rod building related forums. build on the straightest axis of the blank, and position the guides on that axis based on what type of wrap it will be. Myself, I always position the blank with the curve pointing up, and then put the guides on the top of the blank if it's a conventionally wrapped casting rod, or on the bottom of the blank if it's a spinning rod.

The issue is that the bends are the opposite of each other. The bend in the blank is the 180 degrees from the bend at the tip. I'll go ahead and send this one back and hope for a better one next time. I hope I don't have to pay for shipping it back...

Thank you for the input!

Wise decision. Shouldn't have escaped Q.C. in my opinion.