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What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Camilo Lusis (---.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
Date: February 23, 2020 09:50AM

Hi all,

I have a question. Yesterday I went steelhead fishing. I was using a float + jig, with 10 pound braided main line. The rod was built from an 11 foot 6 weight switch rod blank. The guides are Pac Bay Minima match frames with Pac Bay single foot fly guides as the running guides (I can't remember the size).

While fishing I was getting quite a few tangles near the top ten inches or so of the rod. The line would somehow wrapped around the guides and I would need to place the rod down to untangle things.

So I was wondering what the common causes of line tangles like these from a rod building perspective? Does guide height or placement affect this?

Any feedback is welcome.

thanks
Camilo

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: John DeMartini (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: February 23, 2020 10:38AM

You did not say how many times you have used the rod. If I were to guess you may not have used the rod long enough to know how it behaves or get used to it.

You may have to make minor adjustments working the rod. Slack lines are usually the cause of tangles on the guides.

In most cases it is the user that causes line tangles because the rod responds to the handler.

In the event it is the rod I would let someone else use the rod and if the same issues occur then the rod may have issues. Which may mean replacing the guides or changing the spacing.

Have fun

John

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: February 23, 2020 10:43AM

Line twist is the usual culprit in such cases. The current could have caused your float to spin, especially if was held tight in the current. Line twist has to take place at the end of the line. Guides are not a factor there. The other possibility is you were using a spinning reel with the drag set WAY too loose, so every time you turned the handle of your reel you put four or five more twists in your line. Guides are not a factor there either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2020 10:46AM by Phil Ewanicki.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: February 23, 2020 11:12AM

My float rods with 4 mm guides, some even smaller never have line wraps, midwest rods with big running guides to decrease icing seem to, unless you space the tip guides close. Line control I think is the issue, one reason, or the reason, so many guides have started being put on rods.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: February 23, 2020 02:15PM

Check this out. [www.youtube.com]

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 23, 2020 02:27PM

Line twist, especially if coupled with slack line. Guides are not causing it, but some designs will help clear, like the Fuji KR.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: David Baylor (---)
Date: February 23, 2020 03:54PM

If you were using fluorocarbon or regular nylon mono filament as the main line, then I'd say line twist like others have said. But you said braid, which makes me think there are factors other than line twist in play. Yes braided line twists, but its extreme suppleness means that it takes a lot of twist before it starts showing up as twist induced tangles.

Personally I don't use braid on spinning gear. When I am using spinning gear I am employing slack and semi slack line techniques with fairly light baits. I just don't think braid works as well under those circumstances as fluorocarbon, or nylon mono.

With that said, I do use braid on casting gear for certain baits and techniques, and I have problems with it looping around the tip top if I am not paying attention to how I manipulate the rod. IMO it floats in the air more when slack. It's definitely affected by wind more than other more slick surfaced lines. Slower rod tip movements or letting the line settle before moving the rod tip is how I combat line tangles at the tip.

Like any other type of line, it has its own idiocincrices that you have to learn to deal with.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 23, 2020 05:08PM

Yes, braid is more tolerant than other lines of twist, but it definitely is not immune. And how it shows up is usually first at the tip, then later on the reel. Without slack line one may never notice, but with slack line it can be a real problem.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 23, 2020 05:36PM

Spencer Phipps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My float rods with 4 mm guides, some even smaller
> never have line wraps, midwest rods with big
> running guides to decrease icing seem to, unless
> you space the tip guides close. Line control I
> think is the issue, one reason, or the reason, so
> many guides have started being put on rods.


This is the correct answer. More guides.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 23, 2020 05:54PM

You could put on an infinite number of guides, as in a line through the center of the rod blank, and it would still tangle at the end if it was twisted and slack.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: February 23, 2020 06:28PM

It is caused by the limpness of the braid which allows a crosswind to change the line's path more than it would with mono or floro.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: February 23, 2020 08:23PM

A line can only develop a twist at one end or the other, not the middle. Proof? Twist the middle of your line but don't let the ends twist. Twist away, then let go. Presto! The twists disappear, no matter what brand of guides or how many you have between the ends of the line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2020 10:40AM by Phil Ewanicki.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: February 24, 2020 09:18AM

Camilo,
If using a spinning rod and reel and the rod has not been used for some time, or even if it has been used recently, but may have experienced line twist as a result of the baits or lures being used - eliminate any potential twist before you go fishing.

If going land based fishing , take a few minutes to take a walk down a deserted street - preferably with grass or something similar on it like a sports field and feed all of the line off of your line spool. Then, walk a bit longer to let the line twists and loops be pulled out of the line as you walk. Then, stop, and with gentle pressure by your fingers on the line as you reel the line back on the spool - reel in the line.

By using this process, any line loops or twists that may have gotten into the line by either filling the spool, or fishing or just having the line stored on the smaller reel spool -- will be eliminated.

Also, if you don't have an anti looping tip top on your rod, try installing one and see if it helps.

For example:
[www.fujitackle.eu]

Notice in this design, it is all about the sloping braces for the tip top that really help to minimize line loops at the tip of the rod.

Also, as has been posted earlier, the anti loop guides also help for the limp lines like braid to not get hung up on the rod guides: In the Fugi line, these are the K guides in either a spinning version or a casting version:

[www.fujitackle.eu]

And in a double foot guide design:
[www.fujitackle.eu]

From personal experience I do know that these guide designs and tip tops really help with wind knots and minimizing loop tangles on the rod.

Take care

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: February 24, 2020 10:03AM

Camilo,
When boat fishing, if I haven't used a spinning rod for a while, I make point to remove all terminal tackle from the end of the line and as I am going to my fishing spot will let all of the line off of the reel. Once you have paid out 20-30 feet of line, the drag from the water will grab the line and quickly pull the line off of the spool. I like to pull it through the water for a 1/4 mile or so. Then, I stop and keeping the tip of the rod in the water while reeling reel all of the line back on the reel spool. This process will remove any twist that has gotten into the line, either from putting line or a reel, or from getting twists while fishing due to lure spin or from turning the reel handle and having the spool slip because the drag is set to light and twists get cranked into the line.

I try to do this process at least every other time that I go fishing. It really mitigates the frustration from getting line tangles while actively fishing.

Take care

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Camilo Lusis (131.104.23.---)
Date: February 24, 2020 01:53PM

Hi all,

Thanks for all the replies and input. I'm leaning towards a line twist issue for one main reason. The braided mainline is the third line I have tried on this particular reel. The first two were 10 pound Suffix (can't remember the exact type of line) and 8 pound Bekley XL. Both had twist issues which was a bit strange because I spooled them up the same way I have been doing for 30+ years without issue.

I switched to the braid because I hoped there would be less line twist and also I was curious about the low-stretch capabilities. I've never had this much problems with line twist before. That being said, I'm also open to checking my technique. The twists often happened after I set the hook when the float went down but there was no fish. In this case I can see how slack affected the tangle issues.

I am happy that the guides aren't the cause. I much prefer smaller, lower frame models for the running guide simply because of the weight reduction. Especially when I think back to some of my old rods which had high frame match guides for the entire rod.

Spencer: when using size 4 guides or smaller do you ever have ice-up issues? I'm fishing in Southern Ontario and try to get out as long as the temperature is around 0. I'd love to be able to use even smaller guides (usually stick to size 6 running guides) if possible.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 24, 2020 05:58PM

Camilo, are you following the instructions that came with your specific spin reel to fill it with line? Fill it with the wrong process and you can have a mess right away.

Yes, very small guides will ice up more than larger ones. I don't know the magic numbers, but the surface tension of the water can cause it to remain in smaller guides until it freezes. I see no real advantage in going smaller than 4's for spin. I usually use 4.5 for spin, 5.5 for cast. But for me it's more about clearing knots cleanly. I don't fish when the water or air are freezing.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: February 24, 2020 06:39PM

I think he's getting wind knots, I could be mistaken. Would think braid to be so susceptible to twisting.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: February 24, 2020 07:51PM

Camilo,
In spite of directions, I have never really found any way to spool line on a spinning reel that leaves me without some or a lot of line twist after fishing a bit.

But, now, I never worry about it. Whenever I notice line twist and if I am in the middle of fishing, I just pop off the reel, put it in the bag for reels to be twist fixed so to speak and mount another reel. Then, when it is convenient, I mount the reels that have line twist in them by letting out all of the line from a moving boat with no terminal tackle on the line and letting it drag in the water for a good distance. The water drag gets rid of all of the drag. Then, with the drag set tight enough and with the boat not moving and the rod tip in the water, I wind the line back on the spool. Now, the line is on the spool correctly and will go a long time before the twists pop up again. But when they do, I just repeat the process.

I really don't know of any magic way to get line on a spinning reel that will work as well as if the line is reeled back onto the spool with the line free to drag and relieve itself of any line twist. It just seems to me that the way that line goes on a spinning reel with the reel itself is rather unique and normally can not be easily duplicated. I simply say this because I have spooled line on a spinning reel and a spinning reel using every reasonable method and still in a short time end up with line twists - no matter the make or model of reel. But, any more, I don't worry about it. I simply use the line in the water being reeled back on the spinning reel to take care of the twists.

Best wishes.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: February 24, 2020 09:18PM

(1) Remove old line from spin reel, unscrew spool retaining nut on front of reel spool, set aside, and pull line spool off reel. (2) Put a washer followed by a nut on one end of a 6" piece of threaded 1/8" rod. (3) Pass end of threaded rod from front and out back of reel spool, drop a washer down on back end of rod, followed by a nut , and screw it down hard enough to keep spool from spinning around the threaded rod. (4) Place the free end of threaded rod in the chuck of an electric drill. (5) Pass shaft of a screwdriver through center hole in spool of new line, allowing spool to spin. (6) Have a vise or a volunteer hold screwdriver handle, allowing line spool to spin while new line is unspooling. Check reel to see if the bail winds on line clockwise or counter-clockwise and set the direction of the drill to wind the same way. (7) Tie the end of the new line on the empty reel spool and use the drill to wind on line evenly until it fills your reel spool. Your spin reel is now filled with line without ONE SINGLE TWIST in its entire length. Sounds complicated, takes 5 minutes.

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Re: What causes line/guide tangles at the rod tip?
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 24, 2020 10:37PM

How to spool line on a spinning reel without it twisting. Spend $45 (Watch video, it is near the end of it)

[www.amazon.com]

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