Good Morning Guys and Girls!

I guess I'm going to start a food fight. Once again I've been struggling with my finishes. I was just so frustrated and just genuinely puzzled. Either my skills have diminished over the decades, which I'm sure they have, or things have really changed. Let me start by detailing how I performed my finishing routine for the first 3 decades I built custom rods. Up until about 2005 this was my routine;

1; Clean my work surface. That means cleaning up all the thread cut-offs. All the tape for the butt wraps. Vacuum everything. Clean my work surface with any cleaning solution I had on hand. Vacuum the floors.
2; Assemble all of my finishing tools and materials. Grab the Teflon sheet I use under the area I'm applying finish. Get my mixing cups, foil dishes and syringes out. Grab my Flex Coat
3; Clean the rod with whatever chemical I had handy. my personal favorite...Xylene. Yep!
4; Mix the Flex Coat and as expediently get to work. Which included mixing in about 15% Xylene. Yes, you heard that correctly! 30-40 minutes later after coating the butt wrap and as many guides as there were on the average rod 7-8 foot rod. That includes going back over it and doting over every little irregularity and detail that my young eyes could see...right! RIGHT!! Get a fantastic finish!
5; I invariably did all of my finishing in the evening after several evenings of wrapping guides and the butt wraps. So, after step 4 I would go to bed. So, step 5 was coming downstairs, shutting off the drying motor and removing the rod from the mounts. Taking it to my customer to use either that day or the next.

Done...DONE!

That's how it was since I was 17 years old when I built my first 5'6", Yellow, Fenwick fiberglass baitcasting rod, with Fuji's first pistol grip. No doubt there have been changes but, for the most part, it was primarily in blanks, guides and equipment. In 2011 I had decided to sell my business of 31 years and retire. It was also at this point I'd decided to expand my "vocation" and start building fishing rods in order to profit so that I could enjoy my retirement and also supplement my income. At that point I examined then replaced everything in my shop. I mean everything. Heck, I have a shop that's 14' x 26' shop. I installed two 8' counter tops along with building a custom Bench Tom Kirkman had on his bonus CD for subscribing to Rodmaker Magazine. All so I had plenty of room to work! Part of that process was re-examining my only option for decades, Flex Coat Epoxy. Well, after considerable consideration, reading opinions here, other forums and where ever else I could get some consensus (which is not possible).of opinion, I decided to make a sizable purchase of ThreadMaster, both regular and "Lite".

Well, since I always seem to be up against time when someone wants a rod, I got frustrated with the dry times of ThreadMaster. It would be days before the rod was really usable. Heck, I didn't even try the "Lite" version. I went back to Flex Coat. Then, a year and a half ago I bought U-40 LS Supreme in order to speed that process up. Oh my lord was this finish different and yes, it's faster. I know I've only used Flex Coat and ThreadMaster, but by comparison, LS Supreme is down right fussy. I discussed some of those problems here and it was determined they were my issues...okay. After troubles on two recent ice fishing rods. For whatever reason, I just could not get it to settle down. For anyone else building Ice rods, you cannot afford for anything to go wrong. You just can't get enough money to justify the time. Agitated, VERY agitated, I decided to do a test of the 4 epoxies I have here. Flex Coat, LS Supreme, ThreadMaster High Build, ThreadMaster Lite...that's it. BUT, the results of my simple test was surprising. Well, maybe not, you be the judge. I'm very interested in your opinions.

Simple test; Mix them up precisely (3cc of resin, 3cc hardener), mix thoroughly! Spread them into a 2.75" aluminum dish (that you can buy at Mudhole, Anglers Workshop, etc.) and apply them to an uncleaned section of a discarded rod to include one guide (which already had a finish on it), total of 2.25" long. Once spread and smoothed with a spatula, I used my heat gun (Milwaukee 3 stage digital heat gun 90-1100 degrees) to see how each released any air bubbles and then ran heat gun across the the rod where applied. Hot but...maybe 400 degrees, I didn't look. Anyway, the one that leveled out perfectly, and I mean perfectly, was ThreadMaster Lite. Even after running the heat gun over it. This one leveled the surface no matter what! ThreadMaster was a close 2nd but it's thickness affected just how smooth it ended up. Not as good. Flex Coat did alright but it did NOT level out nearly as well as either ThreadMaster. But, what surprised me was the LS Supreme. When I blew it with the heat gun it ran like water, dripped off, what's worse it never leveled out...never. Even after I tried to nurse it with the Spatula. Plus, it did it's famous football finish on the guide. It ended up with 3 lumps and one football!!! None of the others did this. This was about as easy of a test that one can do. On an empty blank, no less, and they can't level out? Now, please know, I spent just a minute or two trying to level them then left them to do what they're supposed to do...they either leveled or they didn't! Honestly, this test wasn't even close. What's more they all cured quite nicely. Temp in my shop is 72 degrees. Fastest dry time...Flex Coat, followed by...LS Supreme then the 2 ThreadMaster epoxies.

So, the big question; what changed in Flex Coat that you can't even do a whole 7-8' rod with a butt wrap, plus all the fussing to get it perfect...without mixing a second batch? I don't understand, they changed the formula? If they did, they should have left it alone and then announced a new formula. I read in an older thread on finishes, I'm sorry I don't recall who it was, that said "Once mixed I figure I have 7-10 minutes to get it in place and smoothed out". 7-10 minutes? You guys are definitely better than I am, that's for sure.

Next one, please tell me, does my batch of LS Supreme have some problem? My lord I've got 72 ounces of the stuff. I probably could have worked the he*l out of it and got it to lay down, well, maybe. But the idea was to allow each finish to succeed or fail. Can't blame it on a solvent, can't blame it on silicone, can't blame it on temperature, can't blame it on the mixture (because it hardened). Let's see, what else could be my fault? I'm sure we'll think of something.

So, I know what I'm using from this point forward. I was having problems too often and I just don't need the headache! If this helps even one person verify their finishing troubles then I'm glad I got it out there. I don't mean to offend and I'm not trying to impugn any product. For me, the final finish quality determined the outcome of this rudimentary product comparison. Frustrated that I even had to do it. (Photos available of the final outcome)

With all due respect, I have never heard of such a convoluted finishing procedure. All the stuff about cleaning the rod with chemicals and then putting xylene in the finish? Frankly I’m surprised you ever got a good finish job from that. In my opinion you are just trying to do way too much instead of letting the finish do what it does.

con·vo·lut·ed

1.(especially of an argument, story, or sentence) extremely complex and difficult to follow.
"its convoluted narrative encompasses all manner of digressions"

Really? Too complicated, huh? Okay.

yes, it is way too complicated..your asking for problems by thinning the epoxy..why do you thin the epoxy at all..

[www.epoxyworks.com]

I don't think you will get much sympathy over that story. Try this, mix whatever finish you want, using manufacturer directions, pour it out on a piece of flat tin foil or a plate. And here is the hard part....Leave It Alone. Go to bed. When you get up in the morning, look at your foil or plate. Come back here and tell us what you found.

Tom

Our Flex Coat High Build, the one that came out over 40 years ago and all others are compared to, is still the same formula that it was then. We also offer Lite and Ultra-V formulas that are both superior finishes.

We have very specific best practices for a professional finish outlined in all our written instructions, books, and videos. Venturing outside of these best practices is done all the time, but you should know that you are taking risks that may come back to haunt you. We recommend pouring well measure and mixed finish our on a paper plate covered with aluminum foil. This is to draw heat out of the chemical reaction and spread the mixture out to prolong the pot life and pop any bubbles that may have been mixed in. The pot life or working time should be around 15 minutes, rotated for 2 hours, cured to the touch in 6 to 8 hours and full cure in 24 hours based on 72 degrees room temp.

We do believe in keeping things simple. Don't over work your finish. Two coats are easier to achieve a professional finish, one coat is possible but more difficult to achieve. Thinning the first coat is controversial on this site but does aid in the speed and ease of thread saturation. Again this technique is only recommended for the first coat, and is most advantageous in higher volume production. You should mix the finish as normal and then add the DNA or acetone at a 1:15 ratio. This will also extend the pot life and curing time.

Please watch these two videos on measuring and mixing and applying Flex Coat Finish:

[flexcoat.com]

[flexcoat.com]

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

A; The steps I identified, much are just cleaning (gees), they are the steps anyone who does any kind of work has to do in order to do the work. Doesn't matter if it's office work, construction work or building rods. Except that some jobs require a significant planning phase. It's not complicated at all.
B: I'm not looking for sympathy...my lord!
C: When I did this test I didn't mix anything into any of the epoxies. I apparently didn't make that clear. My apologies. But I did for all of those years. A Client of mine (you may recall them Mr. Coats Ralph Lessin, Rodcraft in Richfield MN) suggested it in the early 80's and I have achieved some of the most stunning finishes of my life from that mix. Secondly, the working time in today's formulation, in my opinion, is considerably different than it used to be decades ago. I'm aware that adding any solvent will significantly slow the curing rate. Still overnight it was always quite hard. As for the way these were done, I actually followed Flex Coat directions to the tee. It still didn't level!
D: The outcome still remains. All of them done full strength, mixed correctly, applied the same way. I guess I'm wondering why?

I quit adding any chemicals once I learned of this website and started reading. Plus, aside from Flex Coat, nobody recommends thinning. So, I stopped the practice.

Lastly, what good would it do to "put on foil and check on it in the morning"? What wasn't used is in a tinfoil dish...is there somehow going to be something different in the results on the rod? And what would you like to know about each "dish"? The hard part is leaving it alone...really? This appears a major waste of time. My apologies.

Tom the point of the tinfoil dish is to show that if you leave it alone it will level so the problem is probably you fussing with it too much.

Hi Tom

I know that many will disagree with me but I always thin my first coat of Flexcoat High Build with acetone as John outlined above. This first coat is so thin it's like water. It saturates the thread and gives you a consistent color throughout. Additionally, you'll discover that there are WAY less bubbles generated in the final coat. It literally takes only a few minutes to apply with a brush. I leave it for a minimum of 8 hours and then apply a second coat of full strength Flex Coat High Build. I always apply the finish to my long sections - name and ferrules - first. I put a generous amount of finish on these sections and then turn my motor off and let the finish sag removing excess before it drips. Once I get down to the desired thickness, I turn my motor back on and hit any spots that I may have "scraped off" with my spatula with a flame. Then I leave these sections ALONE. I will then apply to the guides. Most of my rods have 11 or 12 double foot guides and I have no problem at all completing a whole rod with one batch. Usually about 20 minutes working time. I mix the first "thinned" coat in a mixing cup with a spatula. Takes about 15 seconds. The full strength coat I also mix in a mixing cup but I use the Pac Bay mixer (love this tool!!) and mix for about 5 minutes. This final coat I turn in my drying rack for 4 hours. Dry to the touch but soft in 8 hours. Ready to bag up and ship out in about 12 hours.

I've built thousands of rods this way for over 3 decades. I know everyone has there own way to finish. Just my 2 cents.

Brian

I am not even as involved as you are Tom, but I was having some finish problems years ago and simply started heating the wrapping epoxy before mixing. Just about every problem I was having went away. You may already be doing this, but it just could be a simple solution that you are looking for (Dryer RPM?). Also, are you doing the finish in one coat only?

Not listening...I didn't fuss with it at all. I did heat all of them with a heat gun, first in the foil plate to see how they released bubbles. They were all similar and with just a few seconds all bubbles were gone in all samples. But, boy did they ever respond differently on the rod. I did not use it but a few second. I set my heat gun at the lowest air speed. I did so just to induce leveling. I did have to warm up two of the resin parts Threadmaster High Build and Flex Coat High Build, not much though. Regardless, I let them cool down much of the way to keep the test equal. But, without heating them I had some difficulty getting the resin out of the container (small syringe). I still got the results I recorded above. I also mentioned, I only used a spatula intentionally to make sure I didn't introduce any other potential cause of problems. I did my best to keep everything as hands off and as equal as I could.

You all have success by doing things differently from one and other. I was just asking what you do to be successful with your chosen finish. Your procedures, your methods...that's all. You can take issue with my test all you want but there is no doubt, these finishes have their own "personality" and I originally made my post hoping you could shed some light on what you do with the two I had less success with in my test. The results really surprised me. I have a good supply of all of them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2020 03:45PM by Tom Harder.

In my opinion, heat guns are a risk for blowing dust across the finish. And, hard to know how hot you're getting it. I read in a catalog that a guy just puts the bottles in his shirt pocket to gently warm them. I just warm them under hot water until they feel warm in the hand, not hot in the hand.

Most on this forum do not recommend using any liquid on the blank before applying wrap epoxy.

Look in the library for a good article on wrap epoxy.

1. Wrap guides.
2. Hit each wrap with a bic lighter to eliminate any "fuzz".
3. Place in Flexcoat slip-clutch drum
4. Mix ThreadMaster Hi in PAC Bay drum mixer - new cup every time.
Mix for 4 min. There are never ANY bubbles to burst - therefore no heat gun.
5. Pour out a nickel size on five 3" X 3" aluminium foil trays - previously made..
6. Place all but one in the freezer to slooooooow curing time. Can stay good for 48 hrs.
7. Fill tunnels with tray left out. I fill tunnels until the finish wicks all the way to the far end of the wrap. Fly rods - so wraps short.
8. Remove one tray from freezer - 20-30 seconds ready to apply.
9. Apply thin coat of finish with new soft brush by just "laying it on.
10. If I put too much finish on wrap - I remove excess down to thread - wait until tacky and apply final thin coat.
Herb

Tom,
Years ago, I used to use xylene to wipe down the blank before finishing. But, I encountered a few issues with a few different rods, that has caused me to change my method.

After wrapping and final guide alignment, I use blue masking tape to tack off the wraps and to be sure that there is not dust on the finish.

When applying finish, I only use high build flex coat.
Then, to apply finish, I use my power wrapper to spin the rod at speeds up to 100 rpm or so.

I use the inexpensive nylon brushes like flex coat sells and it does and excellent job in finish application.

So, this the process for myself.
After the rod is completely ready finish and the guides have all been tacked off to be free of dust, and the rod is secure in the power wrapper I will mix up a batch of flex coat. I normally mix enough to do two complete rods.

Clue - I do not take very much time to get the finish applied to the rod and cleaned up.

I start with the butt wrap, and load the brush consecutively and bring it close to the rod, where the spinning rod pulls the finish off the brush onto the blank. At this stage of the game, I just make sure that I have enough finish to completely saturate the thread wraps.
After completing the butt wrap with sufficient finish, I quickly proceed on down the rod to the tip, applying enough finish to saturate the wraps.

Then, working from the tip back down, I keep a heat gun in one hand and my brush in the other hand and do just a brush of gentle heat to insure that the finish remains thin enough to nicely flow. But, I never spend more than a few seconds on each wrap.

Once I get back to the grips, I will turn around to go back up the rod, for a final inspection, doing a touch up now and then if needed. i.e. adding a touch more finish or wicking off a touch of finish if too much.

Then, from the tip, I go back with the final inspection to insure that all is well, and turn off the heat gun, set the brush on the side of the mixing cup to use as a finish check for curing point and get on with my next task.
Generally I spend 3-5 minutes for the entire process.

-----------------------------------
The cardinal rule that I have now adopted is this: Once the blank has been wiped clean with xylene or similar solvent, and allowed to dry, I never every put any solvent of any kind back on the blank again. I also never ever ever ever put any solvent in the finish. The finishes have all been calibrated to have a great finish and cure with nothing added to it. If, during the process, I find that a wrap is not leveling, I will,l add just a tiny touch of heat to thin the finish enough to let the finish flow and to insure than any micro bubbles that might be in the finish leave the finish. I consider that I use a 1+ number of coats of finish on my rods. i.e. by the time that I have gone down the rod quickly during the final inspection ,the finish is beginning to set and if I find a slight issue, I will use enough heat to thin the finish and allow for the addition or subtraction of finish from that particular spot.

One of the main reasons that I only go with the 1+ number of finish coats is simply time. With a single coat of finish there is a single drying cycle. With a single drying cycle, I can apply finish one afternoon and ship the rod the following afternoon.

Summary:
Absolutely, Xylene is the preferred solvent for any of the epoxy finishes. After all, that chemical is used during the manufacture of the epoxy finishes. But the finish as shipped from the vendor is perfect. I take the task that the manufacturer has spent thousands of hours and more than that in time and man power to perfect the finish. So, I don't mess with perfection.

---------------------------
You have mentioned heat several times in your posts. From my read of your posts, it sounded like you would sometimes use rather intense heat. If that is the case - I don't believe that the intense heat is a good idea at all.
For example, if you look at the videos of commercial rod manufacturing plants, many if not all of them use a bit of heat during the application of finish. But when they do, it is gentle and brief heat. A common source of heat for these folks is an alcohol burner or a butane torch that is used with discretion , passing quickly under the spinning wrap and the flame at a distance from the rod so as to not increase the heat too much. If any heat is used at all, it should be brief, and just enough to very slightly thin the finish. More heat than that can boil the finish and actually upset the chemistry of the 2-part epoxy finish.

There is one comment about dryer rpm. I use a variable speed control on all of my dryers, so I turn the rod fast enough to prevent finish sags, but not so fast as to prevent finish football formation. For myself, I find that a drying speed of 6-15 rpm seems about right.
When I am doing the initial finish application I generally use 20-30 rpm and at times will go to as high as 100 rpm. With the higher speed, the finish goes on very quickly and one obtains very clean edges of the finish. Then, once the finish has begun its initial set I will slow the dryer to generally 10 rpm or less for the over night drying cycle.

With respect to Flex coat drying and setup time. I find that I have a working time of roughly 6 minutes from the time that I complete my 120 seconds of mixing that I complete using a clock. If I happen to have a very long rod or a rod with a very long butt wrap as happens with some of the heavier and longer rods, I don't try to complete the finish application in one batch. Rather, I simply mix up one batch and do the butt wraps. Then, I mix up a 2nd batch to do the rest of the rod. If I am doing short ice rods, I will generally coat 3-4 rods with one batch of finish. What every can be done in that 6 minute nice application of finish time.

Also, keep all solvents off of the rod and out of the rod finish. No need, and any solvent may lead to significant issues. If you use heat as I do, make sure that it is only a bit of GENTLE heat and never held in one spot for more than an instant. No need for more heat of longer duration.

You have everything you need for success. As my Daddy said when I was growing up. "Son, just go out and do it.!"

Good Evening Tom

I build only fly rods and clear wraps have become my signature of sorts, so my routine might not apply to other rods or be acceptable to other builders.

1. I don't clean prior to finish work to avoid 'raising a dust'.
2. I heat the resin about 8 seconds in the microwave, .mix 3cc of resin and hardener for 3 minutes, add 3cc of acetone and mix 2 minutes. Mixing done using a CRB electric mixer.
3. Thoroughly wet out the silk wraps using a disposable brush. Excess finish will quickly sag and easily wicked away.
4. Turn the rod 180 degrees by hand every minute for 5 minutes. Carefully inspect for sags after each turn and wick away.
5. Turn the rod 180 degrees by hand every 2 minutes for 10 minutes. Again inspect for sags after each turn and wick away.
6. Set rod to slowly turning in a tent heated to about 80 degrees until unused supply of mixed epoxy is dry to the touch.

Application of the finish coat(s) is the same as the above without the addition of acetone.

I use no heat other than the warming of the resin before measuring and mixing.

I used ThreadMaster Lite for the above for years and give you fair warning - it takes a while for ThreadMaster to fully cure and the first coat with acetone will not 'go off' for hours and hours. So, if you just got to have an apply finish and ship 12 hours later solution this most definitely is not ifor you.

Good luck

"Cleaning" with a solvent is nearly always incorrect when applying any sort of top coat finish, adhesive, etc. It can cause more problems than it solves and has been the culprit in many a witch hunt.

These problems are often hard to solve in message board posts.

.........

Donald,
Why do you put acetone in your finish that makes the finish softer?

Best wishes

Didn't mean to get your dander up Tom. My point of checking your plate of finish in the morning was simply to see if it was hard, clear of bubbles and flat. If it was, then your methods of application are at fault. Just a simple test. Try mixing per directions, apply without " tinkering" and let the finish do it's job. One of the hardest things to learn in this craft is to understand when to quit messing around with the finish process. I hope you get your problems solved and continue building.

Man you guys, thank you! I just love reading about how you do things. Even after all these years I have this insatiable interest in improving what I'm doing. If not for speed, then most importantly for quality. Every step matters and it's really great to read your descriptions of how you operate. It's just really cool.

Before I pick out some interesting highlights of what you're writing about, I just want you to think about maybe some newbies or anyone searching for information on different finishes on this Forum and just how rich this thread will be for their search. So many helpful tips (they are not just tips, they're an invaluable resource) for someone to be able to use to achieve a higher level of proficiency. I've been doing it for so long and I'm gaining a wealth of knowledge from you guys!!

"6. Place all but one in the freezer to slooooooow curing time. Can stay good for 48 hrs" - Good idea Herb! I'll try that.

"After wrapping and final guide alignment, I use blue masking tape to tack off the wraps and to be sure that there is not dust on the finish." Another interesting idea - I'll try that too Roger (Roger, you have a number of good ideas)
Roger...6 minutes working time? Good grief! Good advice though!

"6. Set rod to slowly turning in a tent heated to about 80 degrees until unused supply of mixed epoxy is dry to the touch." Thanks Don...this too is a good one. I've been debating building a tented wall mount, heated drying station (I've got room above one of my counter tops). I like this one a lot! It would definitely speed finish conformity and, especially curing time!! My test of the finishes verify what you are saying about the curing time on ThreadMaster Light. It almost seems I should be using different finishes for different customer demands. I'm not sure I'm willing to do that.

"Cleaning" with a solvent is nearly always incorrect when applying any sort of top coat finish, adhesive, etc. It can cause more problems than it solves and has been the culprit in many a witch hunt." I'm adhering to this rule Tom. But, for three decades I didn't and I just had zero problems. Heck I'd never had a fish eye so when it happened last fall I was mystified. Another example is syringes, remember those first ones we had? They had a rubber seal with grease (silicone?) on them that we had to clean off. Yet, I had zero problems in all of those years. So, I'm doing what this rule "demands", but I just have to point out all those years when I was too dumb to know better and I still got fantastic finishes!

Thanks Dan! Yes, all of those dishes ended up looking beautiful. Not a bubble in any of the four and very flat and smooth. But,you're right, the difference in hardness is substantial! The hardest was ThreadMaster High Build and Flex Coat about the same, the LS Supreme was slightly behind those two but, ThreadMaster Light was very soft...as in VERY. So, they all pose different issues, don't they? It kind of makes sense what Billy does mixing them, eh? You know how thick ThreadMaster High Build is? It didn't even spread across the entire dish...oh my! But, it was pretty hard by morning. Okay, I'll try the test over again and not try to "fix" anything. Let's see what the results are. I need to find a similar broken rod with old guides on them. I'll report back.

*Note - I also have a CRB mixer. I tried to use it with ThreadMast High build for my test and I had 2 half inch ball bearings in there and it was so thick they got stuck! So, then I tried the weight it came with, it still wouldn't mix. Every time I've tried to use it I've not had a good experience. Operator failure I think!

One pivotal change I'm going to make very soon that I've gathered from you guys (other threads too) is the speed of rotation when you apply the finish. This is one thing that Flex Coat is really promoting right now. They have their new high speed finishing system now ($200 - which is quite expensive). I'm in the process of building a professional VERY high quality commercial duty 4 rod drying station. I bought a OrientalMotor DC motor (incl. controller, speed controller (e Bay) as well as gearing (nylon) and all of the bearings from Sterling Instrument in order to construct the gearbox (geargenerator.com). 4 rod, variable speed (range - 9rpm to 187rpm). I also bought Aluminum Extrusions (8" x 8 with hanger grooves') from Eagle Manufacturing here in Mpls. For a substantially better 4 rod system I've spent around $200.00. I think I could buy one similar for close to $500.00. I've just acquired all that's needed to build it recently. Not everyone mentions this but with the pot life of these finishes it seems wise to attain a drying station to speed up the finish application process.

Okay, I'll do the test again. I'll post my results shortly.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2020 06:22AM by Tom Harder.