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Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: February 05, 2020 12:15AM

Your supported opinion is graciously requested! The opinions and debates concerning under-wraps and double over-wraps is ongoing and will probably never be decided one way or the other simply due to there not being a definitive right or wrong opinion, compounded by personal preference. Although separately discussed previously numerous times, I would like to include both together here as they are (can be) interrelated on the same moderate-to-heavy builds, mostly and inherently saltwater.
Those on this site who know me have probably witnessed my self-inflicted, habitual over-thinking, and thus the same could be considered with this case. Through my novice eyes and said thinking, I have developed my own thoughts on this subject and would like to share them in hopes of sparking others to share their own thoughts, ultimately benefitting all.
UNDER-WRAPS; Pros = insulate guide feet from marring/compromising blank, stabilize guide feet, some like/expect the look (tradition), those who have difficulty wrapping narrow trim bands can simply indent the over-wrap. Cons = added weight, added bulk to the wrap, additional wrapping step = more labor.
I have adopted under-wrapping rods of 30lb or above, more so to assist stabilizing the feet than protecting the blank; the heavier the line-class = the thicker the blank walls = the less prone nicking from a guide will have a detrimental effect. The additional weight is similarly proportionate = I would certainly not under-wrap an UL rod while it is virtually undetectable on a 50lb rod.
DOUBLE OVER-WRAPS; Pros = obvious additional thread strength holding guide to blank, additional protective barrier to counter abrasion of the underlying wrap, some expect/believe it is required on heavy rods, those who have difficulty wrapping narrow trim bands can simply indent the second over-wrap. Cons; the additional strength is not required, added weight, added bulk to the wrap, additional wrapping step = more labor.
I personally do not double over-wrap unless a customer prescribes and is willing to pay for it. The additional strength is not required, adds unnecessary weight, creates a bulky, bulbous look to the wraps and requires an additional wrapping step similar to wrapping two separate rods = waste of time and money. Anyone doubting a single over-wrap is more than enough should consider the following.
All of the modern rod building wrapping thread, mostly nylon, is quite strong and with each revolution around the guide foot and blank that strength is multiplied. Allow me to mathematically demonstrate just how much holding strength our typical wrapping thread generates to secure a guide to the blank. If it has already been done before in the archives, post it so we all can compare.
I measured the breaking strength of size “A” and “D” thread, ProWrap but the brand really does not matter; it is what I had. I also measured the width (NOT the diameter) of each by counting the number of rotations (typically packed) required within 1 inch of wrapping under tension and divided accordingly. Size A = .0088in wide with a breaking strength of 4.4lb; size D = .0125in wide and broke at 8.1lb. I would not have guessed D would be that much stronger than A. Let’s allow a generous margin-for-error (25%) and say the breaking strength of size A is 3lb while D is 6lb. Let’s also use a guide wrap of .75in long to compute the holding force generated by both A and D thread. For size A; .75in (length of wrap) divided by .0088in (width of thread) = 85.23 (85) rotations of thread. For size D thread; .75in divided by .0125in = 60 rotations of thread. Now we will simply multiply the number of rotations by the (adjusted) breaking strength; for size A; 85 rotations X 3lb = 255lb of holding strength. For size D; 60 rotations X 6lb = 360lb of holding strength. If those numbers are not, in themselves, convincing enough, realize those are FOR ONE GUIDE FOOT! Multiplying by 2 (guide feet) reveals an astounding total of holding strength for a typical double foot guide to be 510lb for size A and 720lb for size D. Still not convinced? Consider those numbers are for only one guide; the more guides involved the more any given load is distributed along the rod accordingly.
Allow me to offer a second, different perspective; How much of a load (fish) can be exerted on a guide? One needs to acknowledge that a 350lb tuna on the end of your line can only generate as much force as the setting of the drag on the reel. Let’s assume a monstrous drag of 50lb is employed on a rod with six guides. The math is simple; 50lb (drag) divided by 6 (guides) = 8.33lb per guide. Although it is doubtful any of us could hold onto a rod with 100lb of drag, the force on each guide would still only be slightly more than 16lb. THAT IS A FAR CRY LESS THAN THE 500LB OF HOLDING STRENGTH AFFORDED BY EVEN SIZE A THREAD.
Granted, my observations, measurements and approach may be rather crude. However, from a logistic perspective, with such a huge difference between required and afforded, I see absolutely no need for double over-wraps other than possibly the additional protection from neglect and misuse. Hopefully I never encounter such a customer, for his sake!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (118.208.67.---)
Date: February 05, 2020 01:21AM

Mark,
Yes this will probably be debated for ever. I am only a novice builder so have very little experience to go off. I have built only 3 rods thus far. Doubt that underbind and double over binds are necessarily needed. However I still did it on the 15kg and 37 kg stroker style rods I built. Used A for underbind and D for over binds. Also some do a coat of epoxy between the two overbinds. I did a test on some scrap blank where I did double overbinds without epoxy between the layers. When I applied the epoxy I did one test at the start just after mixing the epoxy and one test at the end of the usable pot life. The test at the end when the epoxy was starting to get thick did not fully penertrate the two layers when I cut the guide off. Was using thread master high build. Think that using lite epoxy would have better penertration in this and most other circumstances.
Just my observation fwiw.
Scott

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Re: Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: February 05, 2020 02:41PM

Scott,
Thank you for your contribution.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: John DeMartini (---)
Date: February 05, 2020 03:46PM

Mark

I enjoyed reading your post, it was accurate and educational. Yes this debate will linger on but each session brings out more food for thought.

MY THOUGHTS FWIW about under wraps;

Under wraps are more decorative than functional.

As I have said in previous posts I have no issues with decorative wraps or thread art, in fact I envy those with the talent to do it.

One of the reasons given for under wraps is that it protects the blank from being scuffed by the guide foot.

When the guide is seated on top of a layer of thread the thread layer becomes a cushion or resilient layer and if the thread finish does not thoroughly saturate the under wrap it makes for a weak attachment that could cause problems later on..

If the thread layer is impregnated before the guide is attached then the result is a decorative wrapped area with an increased blank diameter to mount the guide..

Neither situation (for me) is desirable.

I do not use under wraps, HOWEVER it is not my intention to discourage or miss lead anyone from using them.

Bottom line, under wraps for whatever reason is a matter of builder/customer preference.


Scott

FWIW is grain for the grist mill, a good thing..

John

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Re: Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: Robert A. Guist (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: February 05, 2020 04:12PM

Hello Mark.

Ever dress an unlimited rod for catching large sharks and large marlin?

I use Big Foot Super Heavy Duty Roller Guides with size "D" under wraps, coated and a size "D" over wrap, coated and a second over wrap in a size "EE".

When you are strapped into a chair dragging in 2000-3000# fish with 500# Dacron and 30' of 1000# wire you do-not want your gear to fail, but even with all that I lost 1 guide once.

You have to build to what you are going to catch, I have also built rods out of a reed I found in my back yard for kicks and caught 3# red drum, again in my back yard.


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

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Re: Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: February 06, 2020 10:38PM

Thank you for those who took the time to reply. I must express my disappointed that more did not reply, especially the veterans and heavy-hitters; Unfortunate for all of us.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 06, 2020 11:11PM

Mark, let it ride a while! Everyone does not tune in every day. I think it is an interesting subject even though it has little or no application for me as I only build fly rods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2020 01:18AM by Phil Erickson.

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Re: Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 07, 2020 12:17AM

Please don’t disparage people for not replying. The subject is of little concern to me and perhaps others who don’t build heavy duty off shore rods,
Norm

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Re: Under-Wraps / Double Over-Wraps?!?!?
Posted by: Ken Brown 2 (---.229.247.206.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net)
Date: February 07, 2020 06:52AM

I cant really speak to the topic as of yet. I have only built one saltwater rod and that was for inshore applications. I put an underwrap and a single overwrap on the guides. It looks bulky but it is solid. I was contemplating building a tuna rod, just haven't gotten around to it. I would do an underwrap and probably 2 overwraps as well. My thought is that I would do the underwrap then coat it in epoxy. Affix the guides, first wrap, then epoxy. Then add the 2nd overwap followed with epoxy. I would want to make sure each wrap gets fully covered with the finish before applying the next wrap. This is just an assumption as I haven't actually done a heavy duty build yet.

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