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Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Brett DeNicola (---.sub-174-254-65.myvzw.com)
Date: January 21, 2020 03:26PM

Looking for guides for a 7'6" 1/4- 1oz rod. Lookong at the minima match reduction and f runners set up kr. Would they be good for this blank? Looking too save weight. Kind of confused about the choices and the weight savings between titanium and the cheaper options. Confused about the differences between titanium, titanium tibl tibl, tiblack. Is tiblack just ss is tibl color? And titanium tibl tibl is titanium frame in tibl color with tibl color rings. Are all the rings the same material minima whatever that is? Does minima hold up to braid? And is the weight savings from titanium as opposed to ss even worth it in minima guides?

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 21, 2020 03:50PM

They are very light but I won't begin to comment on all the different frames colors and variations. Yes, the rings are the same. I have found these guides to be an excellent choice for most freshwater and even light saltwater rods. They will hold up to braid.

..............

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 21, 2020 05:05PM

When you get down to a micro guide, size 5 mm ring or smaller, there really is not that much difference in weight even in titanium. I have weighed the same guide with Ti frames and stainless frames and they actually weighed the same or the Ti a little more in some cases. At that size the tolerances are greater so the inconsistencies inherent to the manufacturing will vary more. In other words don't expect every one of the same type of guide to weigh the exact same but they are going to be very close. The Minimas are good guides but if you are going to use them in saltwater you may want to consider a titanium frame. It looks like all the ring material is 304 stainless steel with different finishes. The frames come in Titanium, 316 and 304 stainless steel also available with different finishes. The only negative (hardly so) is the line going through the guides may have a different sound than going through ceramic guides. The price point is good for a good guide.

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: January 21, 2020 05:48PM

The Minima4 black titanium Tiblack guide has a titanium frame with a double swagged hard chrome ring with everything being PVD coated with the TiBlack finish. This finish adds additional hardness and corrosion protection. The Minima4 TiBlack and TiBronze guides are a stainless frame with a double swagged hard chrome ring that has been PVD coated with the TiBlack or TiBronze finish. The regular titanium frame is a Minima3 guide with a hard chrome ring which is swagged on one side with the other side being lightly swagged and is uncoated. The regular chrome and 316 stainless guides are uncoated Minima4 guides. In contrast, the black with silver ring, the black with gold ring, and the silver with gold ring are all Minima3 guides, and the frame color is not a PVD finish.
The Minima guides are all quite light, an entire set of a 20M based reduction train coupled with 4F or 5F runners will weigh less than a single 25SV ceramic ring guide. They will work quite well with braid, and I have not seen any of the Minima guides grooving, but have seen grooving in the tip tops. To take care of that problem use a tip-top with a ceramic insert.
Norm

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Brett DeNicola (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: January 21, 2020 05:50PM

I searched about them earlier and one thread was saying people were grooving their minima 3s. Thats why i questioned their durablity with braid though Tom says they are ok with it. Guess the newer minima 4s are better. Just never used anything other than ceramic and fuji at that

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Brett DeNicola (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: January 21, 2020 05:56PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Minima4 black titanium Tiblack guide has a
> titanium frame with a double swagged hard chrome
> ring with everything being PVD coated with the
> TiBlack finish. This finish adds additional
> hardness and corrosion protection. The Minima4
> TiBlack and TiBronze guides are a stainless frame
> with a double swagged hard chrome ring that has
> been PVD coated with the TiBlack or TiBronze
> finish. The regular titanium frame is a Minima3
> guide with a hard chrome ring which is swagged on
> one side with the other side being lightly swagged
> and is uncoated. The regular chrome and 316
> stainless guides are uncoated Minima4 guides. In
> contrast, the black with silver ring, the black
> with gold ring, and the silver with gold ring are
> all Minima3 guides, and the frame color is not a
> PVD finish.
> The Minima guides are all quite light, an entire
> set of a 20M based reduction train coupled with 4F
> or 5F runners will weigh less than a single 25SV
> ceramic ring guide. They will work quite well with
> braid, and I have not seen any of the Minima
> guides grooving, but have seen grooving in the tip
> tops. To take care of that problem use a tip-top
> with a ceramic insert.
> Norm

Yea actually it was the tips grooving that i read in thread from like 2017. Didnt see your post before my last one. Still probably going to go with one that is a minima4 the thread mentioned some negative reviews on the 3s though i didnt look into what exactly

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: January 21, 2020 06:00PM

Brett,
I typically use Fuji KL-Hs for my KR Concept builds, CCKLAG or BCKLAG to be exact. While admittedly not the lightest, they are very stout, the Alconite ring will never groove, and I have never experienced a problem. Unless a customer demands it and is willing to pay for them, I cannot justify spending 2 to 7 times as much (depending on the size) for the TI versions, TKLTG.
When weight is paramount over anything else, the PacBay Minima M guides are an awesome choice. The weight savings is considerable, especially the reduction guides. However, if I remember correctly, Norman Miller found extremely little weight difference between a size 4 PacBay F guide and Fuji’s KTs. When I employ a Minima M reduction train, I usually use two Fuji KBs (for the bigger foot in the mid section) followed by KTs to a LG tip top; even if using Minima F runners, I still prefer a LG tip top which will never groove. At least with the M guides, the cost difference between Ti and SS is not as extreme.
As for your question concerning Minima frame material and color, I have wondered the same as you. The M guides I use are the TM3XG and PacBay states frame = “Titanium” and the ring = “Chrome”. Whether “Titanium” is the actual frame material or simply a color description, I do not know for certain. I have also read the series 4 M guides are better than the series 3 but do not know exactly what the difference is.
Actually, I like the style/looks of the PacBay ZV more than the M, but the frame is not quite as high which may require a larger ring size. None the less, I have only built one ZV rod and four with Ms.
Hopefully, a concerned PacBay rep is following this topic and will shed some light on the subject. If not, we will have to contact their customer service ourselves.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: January 21, 2020 06:10PM

I am a slow typer! I started my reply after only Tom had replied. Thanks, Norman = you are always a wealth of reliable information.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Brett DeNicola (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: January 21, 2020 06:26PM

Thanks guys appreciate the input definitely going to try them out and i have a better idea in choosing now

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: January 21, 2020 06:37PM

The difference between the Minima 3 and Minima 4 is the way the ring is swagged into the frame. The Minima 4 is double swagged and the Minima 3 is swagged on one side and lightly swagged on the other. For Minima 3 guides, this partial swagging process is done to protect the colors since the chrome or PVD coated ring is added last. The Minima 4 guides are just a single color and the PVD coating if used is down after the ring is double swaged into place. The PVD coating of the tip tops does increase the ring hardness, but still not as hard as any ceramic guide. The titanium frames for both the Minima 4 and Minima 3 guides are in fact titanium, and are quite corrosion resistant. Mark is correct the weight savings occurs mostly in the reduction guides, running guides are quite small thus the overall weight savings is less pronounced.
The ZV guide is a Y style frame which would be used for a NGC layout, and it has a larger ring size for a given height when compared to an M guides, which can be used in a KR concept layout. Having a smaller ring for a given height also makes the M guide lighter. If you want a very light guide train go with the Minima guides, if you want a more durable guide train go with the Fuji KR guides.
Norm

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: January 21, 2020 09:33PM

Brett,
Sorry to step on your post.
Norman,
Thank you for the additional input and clarification for me and anyone else following this topic. You have precisely explained everything I was wondering about concerning Minima M guides.
Actually, about a year or so after starting to build rods, the first guides I used other than my exclusive Fuji, were the PacBay ZVs. My novice state was (and to this date is) impressed and sold-on the KR Concept, so I attempted to produce a KR/ZV layout. I used a ZV-20 stripper and a 10 for the next guide followed by F-5 runners rather than the familiar KL-H-16, 8, 5.5M followed by KB/KT 5s. While I am admittedly a bit more numb than most of you, the rod works very well. As stated though, that was my only ZV build and all have since utilized M guides.
It is comforting to learn a respected veteran such as Norman verifies my own observations that, “If you want a very light guide train go with the Minima guides. If you want a more durable guide train go with the Fuji KR guides”. I want to be just like Norman when I grow up!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Brett DeNicola (---.sub-174-254-68.myvzw.com)
Date: January 22, 2020 09:14AM

Thank you Norman and Mark i have two rods planned going to do minima for mine and the other is a prize for a memorial tournament in april for my grandfather who died fishing sandy hook nj in 2018 going to do kr for that for durabikity im careful other people may not be

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: January 22, 2020 05:41PM

The lightly swaged Minima 3's can sometimes have sharp edges on the tip side of the ring.

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Re: Guide suggestion - minima?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: January 22, 2020 07:22PM

Brett,
You have a very logical approach and plan for the two builds. For your Minima rod, still consider using a LG tip top; a half or one size bigger than the runners will keep the ID opening similar if that is a concern. Hopefully you get an opportunity to fish both prior to your Grandfather’s memorial tournament to compare both set-ups back-to-back and then report back to all of us with your findings and opinions. Hey, you gotta make sure the prize rod is functioning properly, right? And you’ve got ‘till April, right? Besides, even more of you will go along with your gracious gift! The recipient will be blessed and fortunate indeed. I am certain your Grandfather will be sporting a huge smile!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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