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Braid no good
Posted by: Mark Hahn (---.120.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: December 08, 2019 03:14PM

I was building a rod for someone and when I asked if they were going to fish mono or braid, they absolutely refused the idea of braid. I asked why and he referred me to a magazine article stating that braid "would shorten casting distance, And, too, when playing a sizable fish or pulling hard on a snag, the no-stretch line cab be pulled down deep into the rest of the spool, causing tangles."

Has anyone else ever heard of this? What are your thoughts?

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: December 08, 2019 03:47PM

Any line can be pulled down deep into a spool that has been wound in under little to no tension.

As far as reducing casting distance - compared to what? I would suggest you tell the guy to go buy some braid in the same pound test that he's using in mono now and go cast it and see what his distance results are.

..............

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 08, 2019 03:49PM

I'd be interested in reading that article.

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: ron zimmerman (---.tcso.qwest.net)
Date: December 08, 2019 03:52PM

Dont challenge him , the customer is always right …..

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: December 08, 2019 04:03PM

I have never seen a documented comparison between casting distance using braid and monofilament, or between any rods, any guides, any reels, any brands, any line diameters, or any measurable qualities or quantities. If you know of any such measurements please post them and their source!

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 08, 2019 04:09PM

I would think common sense would tell you that 20lb. braid would cast better than 20lb. mono with equal lure weight.

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: December 08, 2019 04:31PM

For spinning rods there is absolutely no question that braid casts better than mono or fluorocarbon. I have proven this on numerous occasions. With casting gear braid still casts better but the difference is not quite as large. Also braid is much more sensitive, and sets the hook better. I use braid on all my reels, and only use mono as a backing. However, some people don’t like braid and/ or prefer mono or fluorocarbon for certain techniques, and that’s their choice.
Norm

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: December 08, 2019 05:53PM

Mark,
I mainly fish for walleyes, which tend to have a soft bite and don't fight nearly as much as bass or trout.
But they really taste good on the table.

So, when I am pitching very light jigs in more shallow water - as in spring fishing, I use only mono. I prefer the stretch that I get from the mono on short distances as is the case for fishing in the spring.

But, then, when the season progresses and I might be doing some deep vertical jigging of 40 to 80 feet, I will always use a stiffer rod with braid to give me the best sensitivity, and the ability to better set the hook on these deep water fish.

When trolling, I prefer the use of mono for the stretch. When trolling the fish set the hook themselves, so one only really needs to keep the line tight and you have the fish in the boat. Again, the stretch of mono helps to keep the fish hooked up as one is reeling it in.

But, if I am doing distance casting using medium lures, I am now back to braid to better feel the bite on these long casts, and to also better set the hook at a greater distance.

As my father told me many many years ago. "Son, do your best to always use the right tool for the job that you are doing at the time. " One of the main reasons that I absolutely avoid the use of a letherman for any thing other than cutting. No thank you for the multi purpose tools that do none of the jobs very well, but can do a lot of jobs rather poorly. I would rather keep a tool box with me and use the right tool for the job.

Same with fishing line, rods, and reels. There is one perfect rod, there is one perfect reel, there is one perfect bait for the fish that you are targeting at a given time. I try to always use that combination of perfect items to capitalize on hooking up to any fish that are in the mood.

Take care

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: December 08, 2019 06:15PM

.With some things one does not need a documented comparison to know what the facts are and which tool to use. I suggest giving the customer what he wants, but he is wrong about his braid vs mono "facts."

The digging in with braid used to be much worse than it is now due to, I believe, the fact that most of the old braids were not very round and the "edge" would easily sink into the line on the spool. What fun, cutting a hundred yards of braid off a spool .

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: December 08, 2019 07:18PM

Most modern spinning and casting reels are really braid friendly. Because of the way they cross wrap the line onto the spool, digging in is not much of a problem as it use to be. in addition, as Micheal suggests, braided line is getting rounder and thus lays nicer on the spool. I always install braid with a lot of tension by passing it through a book as I reel new line onto the spool. I also use mono for backing, and this prevents the braid from spinning on the spool. Braid is also much less prone to twisting when compared to mono. I like the stuff.
Norm

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: December 08, 2019 09:19PM

I'm having a very hard time believing that an article was published that actually said there is no casting advantage in regard to braid , it's basic common sense as braids diameter is considerably less than mono of equal stated pound test . modern braids are far lighter and slicker also , the casting distance advantages are not subtle either they're dramatic.

It's main advantages are less diameter which equals far more line capacity for smaller reels , it's considerably stronger than mono of equal stated strength ( Don't confuse diameter with stated pound test) , it's lack of stretch is what gives it incredible sensitivity but contrary to popular belief braid does stretch but nothing like mono etc... Most Spectra based braids stretch between 3- 5 percent, most Dyneema based lines stretch between 2 and 4 percent . Braid also has a much faster sink rate than mono .

Mono stretches upwards of 25% - 30% .

As mentioned already the early days of braid were troublesome , lines had a tendency to be more abrasive and not nearly as refined as they're today , consistency was not near as good either and even today it's NOT WORTH buying bargain bin braid . The quality control is not near as good and it's common to find a week spot in the middle of a 300 yard spool , extremely annoying i'm sure. Stick to name brands with good reputations .

Also mentioned earlier is today's reels compared to when braid first hit the market , today's spinners are built with braid in mind which was not the case decades ago so spooling up and fishing successfully with it is far less concerning than some would have you believe . Many modern spinners come with spool adjustment washers to allow you to adjust whether you prefer your line to spool a bit more to the front or the back and with braids this is important because any gap at the very front of the spool or the back of the spool will cause major issues , you want to eliminate both situations and have a perfectly even line lay from the very bottom to the very top with no gaps whatsoever . Thin braids notoriously get caught in those small gaps and casting with that issue leads to nothing but frustration.

Braid should be spooled with tension but not extreme tension although extreme tension will not harm anything . You should typically match the tension of the heaviest weight you will typically be retrieving and only you know what that tension is but i admit i spool tighter than recommended , line dig in is extremely rare but can happen if spooling with not enough tension . If you can push down on the line and leave an indentation you must redo it , it should feel solid with little to no give.

As mentioned earlier and this is especially the case with larger spinners, most don't fill their entire spool with braid , it's not cost effective for one and many people buy spools of 125 or 150 yards. I always purchase 300 yard spools but my reels are large, anyway mono is what the overwhelming majority of people use as backing and they spool braid on top of that , many also have difficulty at first determining how much mono to use before the braid is spooled on top . One way to figure out that dilemma is to spool all the braid you will be using FIRST and then spool the mono on top of the braid until you come to the edge of the spool , clip and reverse .

If throwing with power with a spinner you MUST lock down the drag on the spinning reel or you can get a terrible deep and painful cut , slippage of line while casting because the drag isn't tight enough is an awful experience.

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: December 08, 2019 09:20PM

One thing most of us know, but it hasn't specifically been mentioned, is that the differences between braid and mono/FC are so significant that they affect the design of the rod. If one wants a braid rod that is the most sensitive, crisp feeling, and long casting for less than 15 pound braid, it won't work well for mono over about 8 pound test. The rod designed for 15-20 pound mono/FC will work for braid, but it will be much slower responding, less crisp, and less sensitive than optimum. It's all about optimizing the tool for the intended application, like Roger's dad was advocating and what Roger does. And one rod will not do it all.

Mark, if your customer wants a mono rod, I expect you know it will be a much different rod than one you would design for 10-15 pound braid.

Norm, is it that braid doesn't twist as much as mono, or is it that braid works a lot better when twisted. I think it is the latter. I can see the twists in my braid, but it works very well anyway. I see no reason why one would twist more than the other. Probably a distinction without a difference.

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: December 08, 2019 10:38PM

Micheal, I don’t really know if twisting in braid is less than Mono or whether it is just less noticeable. I know back when I used mono, I would lay the spool of mono on the floor and begin filling my reel. After a dozen cranks or so I would stop cranking and open the bail and pull some line off the reel. If I saw twisting I would flip the spool of mono over and continue filling the reel. This tended to load the mono on the reel twist free. Braid never shows the twists like mono does when you are filling your reel, no mater how the braid filler spool is oriented. I don’t reel against the drag when playing a fish, but if done with mono it’s a sure fire way of getting line twists, not so much with braid. I also don’t have twist issues in braid when using inline spinner baits, but with mono lots of twisting issues. So based on my experiences, twisting in braid is not much of an issue like it was when I used mono. So in retrospect I should have said that braid is less prone to twisting issue/problems. I agree it is a distinction without a difference.
Norm

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Ed Kramer (---.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: December 08, 2019 11:35PM

The shear number of responses tells how much passion there is for braid versus mono/FC. Several arguments I have for braid over mono/FC are mostly listed in other posts. Some additional items to consider are:

1. Backlashes on casting reels. When I started fishing 50 or so years ago, I started with dacron line on a Shakespeare casting reel. I backlashed the line so badly, my mentor spent at least an hour trying to remove the backlash and then had to cut it out to remove it. Backlashes with mono/FC can still be that way. I find with new braids (my favorites, Sufix 832 and Powerpro) backlashes are nowhere near as significant. I typically can remove one in seconds. Granted, my casting skills have improved, but initial casts of the season still plague me with backlashes until I get dialed in. Also, the ability to dial in magnetic drags on modern day casting reels virtually eliminates the problem.

2. Twists and loops on spinning reels. I never have found a mono/FC that matches the lack of memory of braid. Twisting has become a non-issue with braid. Loops can be a problems when fishing light lures, but care and mending fixes that with relative ease.

3. Fish see braid. I believe that is true to some degree. I fish smallmouths in central PA and to alleviate that problem, I affix 10-12 feet of a high quality fluorocarbon tippet onto the end of the braid with an FG knot. A properly tied FG knot is very small and thin, passes through guides without issues, and is super strong. I have had problems with other knots slipping, being an aggravation to tie, or not flowing well through the guides. Simply my preference.

4. Durability. I have line on some reels, reels I use at least several times a year, that has to be at least ten to fifteen years old. That probably sounds excessive to some, but paying attention to fraying or damage on the heavily used end of the line leads to cutting some short lengths off every so often to remove the potential problem. That continues to work down into the remaining line, replacing bad line with newer/unused line. Also, you can reverse the line, if you feel it is necessary, and double the life of the line.

5. Braid floats. True in most of my experience. Sufix 832 incorporates a filament of teflon in the line and helps it to sink. When fishing suspending or sinking lures, I believe this helps.

6. Braid buries itself in the spool when trying to remove a snagged lure. If you have to pull that hard to remove a snag, wrap the braid around something, the handle of a pair of pliers, a piece of branch, etc, and pull with that. You won't cut yourself with the braid or bury the line in the reel. Also, I've found a fluorocarbon tippet tied with an FG knot breaks at the lure knot. This leaves the fluorocarbon tippet and makes breaking off the snag much easier. Braid can be a bear to break when tied directly to the lure.

My first experience with braid was Spiderwire when it came to market. As technology developed, I got experience with other brands, and I went to braid exclusively on casting and spinning reels. If I feel the need for an invisible line, I tie on a fluorocarbon tippet. For the reasons mentioned, it has made me a better fisherman. It also eliminates time lost fixing line problems while on the water, resulting in more time fishing.

As noted, the customer is always right and you want to make them happy. I would loan a rod to that fisherman, built with micro guides, a good guide layout, built for the reel, and loaded with a quality braid/tippet and let him fish with it before you build the rod for them. I've used this approach with doubters, and once they have the experience, they are usually convinced.

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: December 09, 2019 08:33AM

When I get a loop or a snarl in my monofilament line I can usually pull out the loops and fix it in a short while no matter what reel I'm using. When I get a loop or a snarl in gelspun braid I get out my knife.

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Mark Hahn (---.120.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: December 09, 2019 09:11AM

Thanks for all the responses. My customer read a little one-paragraph article from Fur-Fish-Game, published earlier this year. His opposition to braid was unshakable. He is now getting a very nice rod that will accommodate mono exceptionally well. I was in a position to sell a rod or have an argument. Thanks again all.

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: John DeMartini (---)
Date: December 09, 2019 11:09AM

There is a saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".

You did the right thing, you built a rod to the specifications of the buyer. A classic example of custom rod building.

Have fun

John

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 09, 2019 08:57PM

Sounds like this customer is always right even if he isn't. If it's right for him it must be right. Right?

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: December 10, 2019 03:53PM

he can still use braid on the rod..it may be a little less efficient but he probably won,t notice it, in fact it may cast better than the mono even though it was built for mono.

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Re: Braid no good
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: December 10, 2019 04:01PM

Rod builders can only inform and the customer will either take the advice or reject it .

I held off on using braid for years because change is difficult , when i decided to try it out it changed my fishing for the better literally overnight and i have never looked back and that was decades ago . If an angler in this day and age STILL hasn't decided to take advantage of all the incredibly positive things that braid has to offer then that's on them .

You can only do so much for people.

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