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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Mike Gabbay (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 08:28PM

My new calc comes with 16H, 8H, 6L then 5 running guides. I was thinking the KT size 5 for running guides and a 5 tip top. Any other suggestions?

Thanks

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: David Baylor (---)
Date: November 30, 2019 08:39PM

IMO, a rod using an NGC guide train isn't even close in casting performance to a KR concept.guide train, and I use fluorocarbon line as the main line on spinning gear. The NGC is also going to result in a heavier guide train, and that's going to rob sensitivity from the rod as well as making it feel more tip heavy.

A KR set up is definitely the way to go for a light to medium powered freshwater spinning rod.

Also, guides are sized by the ID of the frame that holds the ceramic ring, or the OD of the ceramic ring itself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2019 08:42PM by David Baylor.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: November 30, 2019 09:17PM

You can use either the KL16H, KL8H and KL5.5M, or the KL20H, KL10H, and Kl5.5 M reduction train group. In my opinion, the KL20H based reduction train will give you a little more versatility if you want to use a larger reel and/or heavier line, and it will not affect performance with a smaller reel and/or lighter line. Put 20 to 30 braid Into the calculator, and it will up the reduction train guide sizes. Not a whole lot of difference as far as layout is concerned. Size 5 runners are just fine and will work great. Get two KB5 and 3 or 4 KT5, and a matching LG tip-top. I usually use one more runner than suggested, but that is your choice. As I mention before you can push the stripper and/or choke guides in or out a little to get a nice progressive spacing which you like and will fit appropriately with your ferrule locations.
Norm

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Rod Siemens (---)
Date: November 30, 2019 09:52PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can use either the KL16H, KL8H and KL5.5M, or
> the KL20H, KL10H, and Kl5.5 M reduction train
> group. In my opinion, the KL20H based reduction
> train will give you a little more versatility if
> you want to use a larger reel and/or heavier line,
> and it will not affect performance with a smaller
> reel and/or lighter line. Put 20 to 30 braid
> Into the calculator, and it will up the reduction
> train guide sizes. Not a whole lot of difference
> as far as layout is concerned. Size 5 runners are
> just fine and will work great. Get two KB5 and 3
> or 4 KT5, and a matching LG tip-top. I usually use
> one more runner than suggested, but that is your
> choice. As I mention before you can push the
> stripper and/or choke guides in or out a little to
> get a nice progressive spacing which you like and
> will fit appropriately with your ferrule
> locations.
> Norm
This ^^^^^ I've built a half dozen or more rods the size you are building and have tried both the 16-8-5 and the 20-10-5 reduction trains and opt for the latter. Seems to perform better with different lines and weight lures.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: December 01, 2019 07:54AM

Agree with using the 20 for the versatility reasons given. I use the 16-8-5.5M only on Ultra Lights. Familiar with the Forhan locking wrap? If not check the library.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: December 01, 2019 11:04AM

My experince is that you would have 9 guides max. 8 is more likely.
16 mm to start using braid.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: December 01, 2019 02:17PM

DO NOT follow charts or what the KR concept GPS data says for running guides , use a " Static load distribution test" to determine how many runners are necessary . Fuji's GPS software DOES NOT take into account a blanks natural bending characteristics which is critical for determining how many runners are needed.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: December 01, 2019 02:50PM

Mike,
Some folks are going to a single reduction on their guide sets.

i..e.
Start with a size 20 stripper and then go with size 5s to the tip top. Whether you put a 2nd smaller guide after the stirpper is up to you.

You might set up a guide with a single stripper and then running guides to the tip and do some test casting.

Then, replace the 2nd guide after the stripper with a size 10 or something comparable and see if you actually see any difference in your test casting. If using braid, I am guessing that there will be essentially little to no difference in the distance and or control with the two guide type system, compared to the 3 guide type system.

Take care

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: David Baylor (---)
Date: December 01, 2019 05:24PM

I realize that braided line once broken in, is very supple. I also realize that a spinning rod is much different than a casting rod in that if line starts stacking at a guide, it isn't going to cause a spool over run .......... but I don't see how bringing the line to the blank so quickly (using just a stripper guide and then runners) wouldn't rob some serious casting performance.

And if you're pushing the first guide forward of the stripper out far enough to decrease the line angle any appreciable amount, I'm thinking it's not going to control the line between the guides very good at all. Sounds like a good way to build a crappy casting rod to me.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: December 01, 2019 06:55PM

Roger, how about you running that experiment and reporting back and have Mike, a newbie, stick to proven methods?

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: December 01, 2019 08:28PM

you are correct Roger..this is how i build my rods from ML to UL..just a #16 butt guide and runners..more than enough casting distance for me with 10# braid..the choke is only 18" from reel face..

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: December 02, 2019 11:12AM

Michael, i,ve proven it to myself that it works..that,s enough proof for me..lol.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: December 02, 2019 03:06PM

The original NGC GPS gives you a read out of the position of ALL the guide sizes for any given frame style. You have to choose the three that will make up the reduction train. We would never suggest a 13 guide reduction train.

Herb, the illustration you referred to shows the KL-H used in and NGC layout. The KL-H is ONLY used in a KR Concept build. The suggested guide sizes are incorrect as well.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: December 02, 2019 03:08PM

A lot of things will work with the lighter lines. I was just suggesting that, as I did before, we're probably confusing the heck out this new builder. After a week or so of advice he decides on a method which is proven with line heavier than 10 pound test, significantly heavier, and he gets presented with yet another proposal, a proposal that most likely is limited in its ability to take variations if in the future he decides to go that way.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: December 02, 2019 03:17PM

20 H, 10 H, 5.5 M, 5 KB, 5KB, 5 KB, 5 KT, 5 KT, 5 KT, TT 5. The 20 gets a little closer to the reel than a 16 so it will start to control the line sooner and you get the wave tamed between the 10 and the 5.5. The guide heights keeps a straight line from the reel to the choke point on the rod. I am about to do a rod exactly like this with 3000 size spinning reel' I am going to use a Fuji PB731ML Point Blank blank But for the runners I will be using 6 - 4mm KBs and KTs with a 4.5 TT.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: December 02, 2019 05:38PM

Jim Ising Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The original NGC GPS gives you a read out of the
> position of ALL the guide sizes for any given
> frame style. You have to choose the three that
> will make up the reduction train. We would never
> suggest a 13 guide reduction train.
>
> Herb, the illustration you referred to shows the
> KL-H used in and NGC layout. The KL-H is ONLY used
> in a KR Concept build. The suggested guide sizes
> are incorrect as well.


Well that's odd Jim as that image comes directly from Fuji's own images , i made sure it was. Are you saying you must use a KL-20H - KL10H to a 5.5 M for it to be a legit KR concept build ? Are you saying it would no longer be a KR concept build if perhaps you went with a KL25H KL10H to a 5.5 M INSTEAD of a KL25H -KL12H to a 5.5M . I found on my particular builds that the KL10H worked better than the KL12H so maybe that makes it void of the KR concept designation which is A OK with me .

On another note please explain how the second image below the first IS NOT a legit KR concept build , i agree the first image is a NGC build but the second is not , the fact that it says it's a NGC build is clearly a mistake . It's clearly a rapid choke KR concept build . Is it the 12H instead of a 10H that makes it incorrect or is it the fact that the image doesn't mention a KB as the choke make it incorrect ?

Are we nitpicking here Jim , sounds like it to me .

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: David Baylor (---)
Date: December 02, 2019 05:47PM

Mike, my apologies. I certainly don't want to lead your thread in a different direction. Trust what Norman and anyone that agrees with Norman, are saying. The other stuff is well ............ not for you. Personally I consider Norman "the man" when it comes to spinning rod guide trains. Especially the KR concept.

Follow his advice and you will have a rod that performs beautifully. Once you experience a spinning rod that has a KR concept guide train, my guess is every successive spinning rod you build will be built using the KR concept. It really is that good. And the KR GPS on the Angler's Resource page makes it childishly easy.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: December 02, 2019 05:47PM

=================



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2019 05:56PM by roger wilson.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: December 02, 2019 06:39PM

Agree with David 100% , Norm is actually the only person that i never disagree with on KR concept recommendations, they're spot on .

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Mike Gabbay (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: December 02, 2019 10:11PM

A quick update. I emailed with Norm and he helped me through the guide placement. I’m going with his recommendations above and have ordered a 9 guide set. I should be able to start this weekend. I’ll post pics and updates

I now have a much better appreciation for the science behind spinning rods thanks to all of you.

Thanks
Mike

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