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New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Mike Gabbay (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 11:05AM

So I'm back with more questions. This time I'm doing the layout of a 3 piece spinning rod. The issue I'm having is the 3rd guide from the butt falls right on the ferrule. If I move it up to the tip one inch the foot falls about 1/8" from the ferrule female side.

First photo is the original and adjusted guide placement: [www.rodbuilding.org]

Second photo is where the guide would be placed if moved to adjusted location: [www.rodbuilding.org]

Hopefully the photo links work....

Should I move the guide up another 1/4" to leave room for a ferrule wrap? If I move the guide in question, should I adjust the guides above or below to accommodate for the new position?

Thanks,
Mike



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2019 11:07AM by Mike Gabbay.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: November 30, 2019 11:28AM

Put it on the ferrule using a longer ferrule wrap.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 12:22PM

You really don't need a ferrule wrap, but what Spencer is saying is correct also. I am not sure what kind of software you are using for guide placement, but if you adjust the 1st running guide next to the tip top or the stripper distance from the tip top (sometimes it is measured from the butt) then it may move the guides to a position where the ferrules are not an issue. Also adding a guide may do this, an extra running guide is usually beneficial.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: November 30, 2019 01:22PM

I don’t understand your guide choice. If doing a spinning rod, the 3rd guide from the butt should be a reduction guide and would have a higher frame than the guide shown in your picture. What’s the rod blank length, and what reel and line sizes are you using? Also what type and size guides are you using for your layout.
Norm

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Mike Gabbay (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 02:18PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don’t understand your guide choice. If doing a
> spinning rod, the 3rd guide from the butt should
> be a reduction guide and would have a higher frame
> than the guide shown in your picture. What’s the
> rod blank length, and what reel and line sizes are
> you using? Also what type and size guides are you
> using for your layout.
> Norm


Norm - the first guide is a 25mm 2nd guide is 20mm 3rd guide is 12mm the 4th guide measures 9mm. Now that I am looking at the specs from Mudhole (these are from the CRB med spinning Elite 3mdksb-1 guide kit) it looks like the spec should be 40-25-16-12-8-8-8. Mine are 25-20-12-9-6-6-6. I'm measuring ID of the guide. So that means a call to Mudhole to figure this out..... It's a 7ft rod medium action 8-15lb and I'll mount a 3000 or 2500 reel.

Lance - I did download the @#$%& Excel spreadsheet but was originally using the CRB spacing guide. I'll use that going forward.

Spencer - I guess my concern was how much room between the edge of the foot to the ferrule should I have?

Overall, I need to remeasure using the @#$%& instructions of getting my reel placed and then adjust my guides from there.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 03:19PM

The double foot guides you selected are way to heavy for the medium powered rod you want to build. I would certainly rethink your choice of guides. If you are using braid and want the best performance out of your rod I would choose a single foot KR concept guide train. If using mono or fluorocarbon I might go with a NGC guide train. If you go with a KR concept, don’t order the KR guide kit offered by Mudhole. If you need more information on settin up a KR concept or NGC let us know.
Norm

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 03:34PM

Mike,
You are going about it correctly but what Norman is trying to do is put you on better rapid reduction alignment. The Mudhole placement is intended as a guide to a standard that was used in the past. A rapid reduction type setup will achieve better casting and catching for the rod. You may want to consider different high framed guides in order to achieve this especially with the reel type you described. First issue I have is the amount of guide sizes, there are too many and there are too few guides unless you have a really long handle. I would go to the Fuji website at Anglers Resources and review the KR concept information and consider High Frame Guides. It does not have to be Fuji guides but high frame like Fuji is suggesting. Batson/Alps, American Tacke, Kigan, Recoil and Seaguide all make high frame guides for spinning rods because they really work. Not really telling you to change your train of thought but I believe it would benefit your build.
Lance

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 04:36PM

Regardless of what guides you use, the adjustment you are trying to make is the way to do it. Adjustments of that magnitude will work just fine. Other guides may have to move a little , too. That's fine. I would adjust it about 1/8 farther so that you can end the guide wrap about 1/8 away from the ferrule edge.

I agree with Norman in that a better setup for that rod would be the Fuji KR setup. Full instructions may be found in the Anglers REsource catalog and on their website in the left column of this site. Consider that any un-needed weight on the rod will cost you sensitivity, so go as light as possible. That means that the Fuji KR setup is about as light as it gets, especially when you make all the running guides the same size and about 4mm. It would be at the most a 20KLH-10KLH-5.5KLM for the reduction guides , then your choice of runners to the end.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 04:38PM

The reel size and specs and line type and pound test will determine the guide types and sizes . Without knowing the specific reel along with the line type and pound test you plan on using it's impossible to recommend anything , just mentioning that it's a spinning reel setup doesn't help at all . Will this be a rod that will be fished from the shoreline or a boat etc...

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 04:46PM

Mike , even though the below is not a KR system it is a similar NGC system and will give you an idea about guide sizes and general placement .

[www.rodbuilding.org]

THE BELOW IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THE KR CONCEPT AND HOW IT VARIES FROM THE NGC .



[i.pinimg.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2019 04:50PM by herb canter.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 04:54PM

I think some of us tend to overthink things and the advice we give to newbies is very confusing. A bazillion rods were built without knowing the reel specs, with more guide sizes than we now know are necessary, with guides lower than the current "in-vogue" tall ones, and a bazillion fish have been caught on them. Yes, what we've learned recently has resulted in better rods, but not an order of magnitude better.
Don't let us scare you off, Mike. Listen long enough to understand what we are proposing, then do what you want. It will work.

When I first started I took the advice of another builder and did a casting rod with guides 3 times as large as necessary. It worked OK, but looked goofy, so when I found out that he had thought I was working on a much heavier rod, I rebuilt it with the right stuff. But not because if fished so poorly. Because I didn't like looking at it.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Mike Gabbay (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 05:01PM

As usual all good advice. Ultimately, I want something that is a medium to light setup. Here are my specs:

Rod blank - MHX 7', 3 section travel, 8-15lb, 3/16-5/8oz
Reel - Penn 3000 or 2500
Line - 10# braid

For guides I'll look at the Fuji KRs on the Anglers Resource site.

Thanks for all the really good feedback.
Mike

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 05:53PM

I built a Rainshadow version of that rod and used a 20-10-5.5 reduction train for two reasons. I might want to go heavier on line. I use a 4000 reel on it.

The weight difference between it and the 16-8-5.5 is negligible, especially considering the increase is not way out on the tip.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 06:19PM

"A bazillion rods were built without knowing the reel specs'.


And not a one will come anywhere close to being as good as a build that takes the reel specs and line type/characteristics into account.

Now if NOT building for a specific reel and line type it's a different story .

Understanding how critical the reel and line type is to building the most efficient spinning setup IS NOT at all overthinking anything , it's "Basic common sense " . If i wanted a spinning rod that wasn't built for maximum efficiency i would buy " Off the shelf" because those are built WITHOUT knowing reel specs and line type but that's not what this forum is about .

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 06:23PM

On another note , Mike the KR concept is exactly what you want for the reel type and line size and type you're using , the guys here will get you setup correctly .

Enjoy the rod .

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: November 30, 2019 06:37PM

I agree with Michael a KR concept with a KL20H based reduction train will work extremely well with your rod blank, reel size, and line size and type. It will make the rod lighter, and thus both more sensitive and responsive than the guides you planned on using. On your rod the 20H stripper (or butt) guide will be about 20” in front of your reel spool, and the choke guide or (first runner) will be about 21” in front of the stripper guide. The choke guide and the next runner would be KB guides, and the rest of the runners would be KT guides, and all the runners would be the same size. For your rod you will need 5 or 6 runners for a total of 8 or 9 guides, plus matching tip top. There is a lot of flexibility in laying out your guide train, you can move guides in or out a little to fine tune your layout to fit your needs. In my opinion a KR concept guide layout is a real performance enhancer. Once I tried it I never looked back.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2019 06:39PM by Norman Miller.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 06:54PM

As long as you're settling on the KR guides, notice that they come in a lot of ring and frame types. If you plan on salt water, all will work fine if you treat them right. If you want them to be more bullet proof, consider the titanium frames or the Corrosion Control frames. I have a number of rods which are nowhere near the corrosion resistance of the CC, yet they work fine in salt because I religiously rinse them with fresh, then wipe them dry. Which should be done regardless of what frames are used, also the reel seat area and reel.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Mike Gabbay (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 07:28PM

I went on to the Angler's Resource site and measured my Penn 3000 reel. Selecting the KL guide it comes up with 13 guides (30,25,20, 16, 12, KT10, KT8, KT7, KT6, KT5.5, KT5, KT4.5, KT4). Seems like a lot....

My measurements are A= 93.5 B=84.8 C=28.55

On Monday I was going to call Angler's Resource to confirm my calculations. I've never used Angler's Resource but it looks like they don't sell direct. Looking at Mudhole and Angler's Workshop the kits they have are 10 guide sets and certainly not as precise.

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: November 30, 2019 07:30PM

Nope you used the wrong GPS, use the KR GPS.
[anglersresource.net]
Norm

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Re: New build, guide placement questions
Posted by: Mike Gabbay (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 30, 2019 08:09PM

Much better when you use the right calculator ????

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