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Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Jeff McInnish (---.sub-174-207-22.myvzw.com)
Date: November 20, 2019 02:27AM

I am not sure what has changed in the last year but I am experiencing a growing problem with finish riding up the shank on my single foot guides. I have checked to ensure the rod axis is level and even titled it down on the butt end of the rod but I have the same results. I typically apply a thin first coat, trim or fix any thread issues, then apply the second coat. I have also tried a single coat ( with worse results) and also High build mixes. I"ve been using Prokote for 15 years and the problem seems to have increased over the last couple years. I suspect something has changed, whether it be the finish or me i would like to know I am not alone and that someone can solve the issue.

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: November 20, 2019 02:48AM

Jeff,
When you say the finish is riding up the shank, how far up the shank is the finish riding?

One would normally expect the finish to cover everything up to and perhaps a bit more of the guide foot up to the near vertical section of the guide foot. Is it going more than a couple of millimeters up the guide foot toward the ring of the guide?

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 20, 2019 11:26AM

Have you changed the speed of your drying motor?

............

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Jeff McInnish (---.sub-174-237-8.myvzw.com)
Date: November 22, 2019 02:41AM

When I apply a thin coat the finish will end half way up the shank. If I attempt a thicker cost it will ride up to the ring frame. The space behind the shank down to the blank is the problem area and I believe I may have figured out part of my issue. I am starting my single foot threads from the tip end and working toward the butt. this leaves 4-5 wraps behind the shank. Is it possible that the threads behind the shank are drawing more finish behind the shank and creating the excess that rides up the shank?

I am using 18rpm dryers. Sounds logical that my old 8 rpm dryers would have less centrifugal force.

Ive read 100+ topics on this page and never had a question I couldn't find an answer for. I appreciate the responses!

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: November 22, 2019 11:27AM

Jeff,
SLOW DOWN.

Do a rod with the final drying speed set to 5 rpm and see how it goes.

You can apply finish at what every rpm you like. I generally use 0-50 rpm or somewhere in between to apply finish with the power wrapper. Then, after everything is perfect and looking great, I will slow down the wrapper to between 5 and 10 rpm depending on my mood and let it run overnight for the long drying cycle.

No question about it, too fast a drying speed for the thickness of the finish will tend to cause the finish to ride up the foot of the guide or form footballs of finish in a blob at the bast of the foot of the guide.

This is a picture of a rod power head using a variable speed dc motor that runs from 1-30 rpm and a flex coat chuck with slip clutch to both apply finish at speeds up to 30 rpm and than a speed controller to slow the speeds down to a speed as slow as 1 rpm for final drying.

[www.rodbuilding.org]


Over the years I have built a lot of setups for drying, using different motors. Note all of the different holes in the mounting plate from the installation of different motors in the setup as the years have gone by. I learned to build rods from a rod building class at a local shop. All of their dryers used 6 rpm motors and that is the gold standard that I have used as a base for all of my rod drying over the years as the final speed for the long term drying. The same rod shop also used the high speed Flex coat finish application system that had a 200 rpm motor in the setup and a slip clutch to slow or stop the rod during the application of finish that is still used around the world in shops everywhere to apply finish quickly.
Great to dry finish at 6 rpm for a perfect finish, but no reason at all to apply finish to a rod that is turning that slowly.


Best wishes.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2019 11:40AM by roger wilson.

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 22, 2019 09:34PM

Do I understand that you start your wraps behind the guide and work then toward the guide foot? Is there are reason you do it this way? Not common.

My wraps with single foot guides have only two wraps behind the guide as a part of the Forhan locking wrap, and do not have a riding up issue.

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Jeff McInnish (---.sub-174-207-17.myvzw.com)
Date: November 23, 2019 01:47AM

RW,
You are 100% correct. Speed was the culprit. The pics of your dryer set ups were inspirational. I disassembled a couple of old 8 rpm dryers and remounted them. I let two rods dry overnight with great results. Like I said, I knew something had changed and it was my 18rpm dryer speed. I bought them to speed up the application process and never realized it was screwing up my finished product. The sad part is that I was using the 18 and the 8 right next to each other and never realized the 18rpm was creating the issues. Perspective is everything!

Thanks, Roger

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Jeff McInnish (---.sub-174-207-17.myvzw.com)
Date: November 23, 2019 02:09AM

Phil,
I adopted that wrapping direction for a couple reasons. Physical limitations after back surgery were one but the primary reason was what my daughter calls 'Hot dog Fingers". Its a sarcastic reference to the size of my fingers which may be more information than you needed but she gets the credit for the term and the credit for me starting the wrap from the tip.
I was struggling with removing the tape or tubing I was using to anchor the foot while I walked the thread up. By starting above the foot I can make my over wrap knot, plus two more, then slide the foot under the last wrap, twist lock it and continue down the foot.
I would also add a trim piece above the wrap if I thought I needed to speed the tip action up a little. On the rods I finished last night and spun at 8rpms, I did limit the thread wraps above the foot. I believe the combination of the slower speed and extra wraps were the answer to my conundrum.

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: November 23, 2019 03:38AM

Phils question about the wrapping direction and your answer are both informative.

However, I will ask one more question.

Specifically, what tape do you use to hole your guides to the blank?

If you do not use 1/8th inch wide masking tape, get some.

Whenever doing wraps, I use 1/8th inch wide masking tape. For the larger guides, I use two bands of tape, one band just a bit back from the tip of the guide and then a 2nd band, quite near the rising part of the guide. '

I always start the wrap on the blank, below the foot, then run the thread on to the guide. After I have about 4 wraps on guides where I have two bands, I will stop and remove the band that is now right next to the oncoming thread. Then, I will continue to wrap up to about the 1/2 way point on the guide and then pull the 2nd tape wrap off the guide. I also put in my pull thread loop at this point at the same time. Then, I continue the wrap up to the bend in the guide, and if not doing a locking wrap will do the thread pull at this point. If dong the locking wrap, I will get to within one wrap of the up bend of the guide and start the locking wrap that will continue for 4 thread wraps and will then use the pull thread to pull the wrapping thread through the wrapped thread for a nice tight lock.

In addition, be sure to have really excellent really bright light that is quite close to your blank an in 5-8 inches away. Also, use a good magnifier in the form of a lighted magnifier, head band mounted magnifier or other type of magnifier that is at least 1.5 on up to 3x magnification. Even for a wrapper with large fingers, the use of the very bright light, and the magnification and the use of 1/8th inch wide tape to hold the guides in place make the job straight forward.

Tape - for example:
[www.amazon.com]

I typically use the lower tack Painters masking tape - 1/8th inch wide.

[www.zoro.com]

[www.oreillyauto.com]

Here is a video of the 1-30 rpm dryer motor with Flex coat chuck / slip clutch in action - just click on the link to play: [www.amazon.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2019 03:47AM by roger wilson.

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 23, 2019 05:08PM

You can completely eliminate the use of tape or bands bu using guide foot adhesive from Flexcoat. It takes a little practice to use it efficiently, but once you do, it works great!\, especially on single foot guides.

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: November 23, 2019 06:40PM

hi Jeff..like you i had to make adjustments in guide wrapping because of bad eyes and old age..i started wrapping down the foot from the ring end..it,s much easier to just slip the guide under the thread and wrapto the toe..no tape or glue is needed..i also mount the guides backwards so that guide tips are pointed at the rod tip..i did because you get much better packing of the threads by pushing them up hill so to speak..the wraps pack so much easier..this way works very well with micro guides..

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Jeff McInnish (---.sub-174-207-7.myvzw.com)
Date: November 23, 2019 11:55PM

I think you guys are profiling me?....Magnification and bright lights for bad eyes and adjustments for old age?... Its a good thing sound isn't part of the equation for building rods because I can't hear worth a damn either!
I'm sure there is some irony in the old saying about "Old dogs and new tricks".

ROGER NAILED IT. The dryer speed was the culprit. I rebuilt my drying rack with the 8rpm motors and found the harmony I was looking for and It gave me a good excuse and a little motivation to rearrange my disorganized rod room.

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: Jeff McInnish (---.sub-174-207-7.myvzw.com)
Date: November 23, 2019 11:59PM

BB, I was worried that I was doing something wrong and I had some strange electrolysis building up in my drying process and here you are turning the guides around backwards. You may have just rewritten the quadrangle formula for parabola!

Like you, I found the Tapeless, glueless, process much easier to manage.

I appreciate the new perspectives.

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: November 24, 2019 08:59AM

Jeff,
Just to point out:
Magnification and bright lights are a great help for anyone of any age doing fine detail work.

When one looks at all of the white papers about work place environment, there are special sections that deal with the special needs for folks who do fine repetitive detail work with respect to light and magnification.

In a word, better results are achieved with less strain by the use of very bright lights and magnification.

------------------------
The entire subject reminds me of the time when I was a Jr. Engineer and I traveled the world taking care of problems. In particular we had electronic products where the products were soldered down on spacking with about the thickness of a double human hair. The size of the objects soldered in place were about the size of a human hair. So, all of the build and rework was done under a microscope and an intense light to illuminate the work area. It required a straight touch and a steady hand. But, this skill certainly translated nicely to rod building in my later years.

Summary,
If you don't have pretty intense lighting in the field area of where you are wrapping, i.e. right on the guide wraps, and if you don't have some nice magnification of 1.5-4x power depending on your particular needs, you are making a task much too difficult.

Great lighting and appropriate magnification and appropriate additional eye ware if needed can certainly make a job much more enjoyable , with better results in a much shorter time frame.

In the good book there is a passage about a person being able or not being able to pass through the eye of a needle. But, what is a person to do, if one can not even see the eye of the needle?

Such is the case of a person wrapping rods in dim light with no additional magnification.

Be safe

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Re: Finish riding up on single foot guides
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: November 24, 2019 10:25AM

your correct Roger about lighting and magnafication but i can,t magnify my sense of feel except by putting a handle on the guides which i did by running a piece of fly line through the eye and folding it back to grip the guide..now it,s much easier to slip the guide under the thread and just wrap away..

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