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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: November 07, 2019 03:14PM

In the complete absence of verified fact let's suppose that a rod with ten brand "x" ceramic guides on a 9' six wt. fly rod will cast any fly line farther and more accurately with any fly line in the hands of ANY fly caster, regardless of ability. How should I space these guides?

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: November 07, 2019 04:47PM

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herb,
> Fuji is right about more guides keeping a line off
> the blank - under all conditions.
>
> i.e. if one wants to keep the line off a rod when
> the blank is fully loaded and if the line is on
> top of the rod, one will need more guides to keep
> the line off of the blank.
>
> But, the discussion was about distance casting.
> When distance casting, the rod is swept back and
> then the rod is quickly swept forward transferring
> the energy of the person casting the rod first to
> the blank and then the line.
>
> But, that transfer of energy happens in the very
> first part of the cast. As the rest of the line
> completes iteslf - shooting line off of the reel,
> through the guides and out the tip - the rod is
> for all practical purposes - straight, and the
> line is shooting straight off of the reel through
> the guide and tip top. After the initial transfer
> of energy from the person casting to the blank and
> then to the line - the rod is essentially straight
> and should essentially be touching neither the
> rod nor any guides. As a result - more guides
> just make for a heavier load with the possibility
> of more friction by the line touching one or more
> guides. If the line touches nothing more than air
> - there is nothing to slow it down to limit the
> distance of the cast.
>
> However, just because a rod with 3 or 4 guides on
> it may make it an excellent casting rod does not
> mean that the same rod setup makes a good rod for
> fighting and landing fish.
>
> Take care


My question was not if more guides keep the line off the blank that's obvious that it would my comment was about Fuji claiming the below :

"Guide rings are far more slippery than rod blanks. The real culprit in robbing distance is line slapping the rod on the cast. More guides hold the line away from the blank and casting distance improves dramatically"

It seems distance suffers of the result of more guides which is contrary to Fuji's claim . I'm not talking about fish fighting at all .

Thanks for the feedback regardless.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 07, 2019 04:48PM

That's a pretty huge assumption, but if you go that route you'd space them just like you would most any other rod - do a static distribution test to locate them. I'd put the stripping guide 32 inches from the butt, and the first tipmost guide about 4 inches behind the tiptop ring. Space the remainder between those guides per the distribution test.

...............

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: November 07, 2019 05:14PM

When a fly line is cast the fly line comes in contact ONLY with the guides, not the blank, on the fore-cast - unless you are casting wind knots. I refer you to Isaac Newton. The claim that ring guides reduce friction and improve distance by preventing the line from slapping against the blank is ad-speak for the uninformed.Then again, fishing is absolutely a matter of faith. Why shouldn't rod building be the same?

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: November 07, 2019 05:27PM

The thickness of say, a REC snake guide is tens of times less than the thickness of a ceramic ring guide. Flyline friction is the product of not only the characteristics of the material in the guide rings but the total amount of guide ring surface the line contacts. The thicker the guide rings the more the friction - times the number of guides in the guide train. Physics and faith don't often agree.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 07, 2019 07:51PM

There is very little friction between the line and the guide rings - keep in mind that one of the main components of friction is pressure. During the cast, there is next to nothing pressing the two surfaces against each other.

I once made some crude guides from paper clips (AETNA style), and attempting to keep the weight as close as possible (yes I weighed the two sets) attempted to see how much, if any distance would be gained from using super smooth SIC rings against whatever cheap metal the paper clips were made from. I could find no practical difference between the two.

.............

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 07, 2019 11:40PM

In my opinion the most important aspect of casting is keeping the line coming from the reel as straight as possible going through the guides, by whatever means necessary. Guide material is of no consequence because when the line is straight it is not making constant contact with the guide rings. Fighting a fish it is, so the ring material does have an affect. With less guides the ring material will have a greater affect as to how much friction and load will be applied to the line. More guides and the distribution of load and friction are divided more, the ring material will have less impact on the line. Think of it like this; if you take your knife place the blade in a clamp then hold the ends, stretch the line and push it over the blade and it will cut quite easily. Now put 3 blades spaced evenly apart and push the line over the blades. It will take more force to cut the line. In reality the shape of the ring may be more important and that is something we haven't even began to look at. Anyway you do look at it, this has been a great thread and all the thoughts expressed are a part of this puzzle that we are trying put together. Thanks for the forum Tom. I really like the way this subject fires everybody up, it shows our passion for a great hobby.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 08, 2019 07:54AM

Almost everything we do in rod building requires some sort of compromise. Using fewer guides has it advantages and disadvantages just as using more guides does. People often ask me how many guides to use. I tell them to use the correct number - which is always the fewest number that will still provide adequate stress distribution to the rod and ensure that it will hold up to the task at hand.

..........

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Laurent Keiff (37.164.220.---)
Date: November 08, 2019 01:33PM

The weight penalty will be greatly reduced with Fuji torzite guides. But the cost is very high, for very little gain IMHO.
Except if you're building a rod that will see hard rushes I to the backing regularly, I doubt it's worth it.
For blue water type rods, though, where heat dissipation may be an issue, it could be worth

_______________________________________________
If I'm not going to catch anything, then I'd rather not catch anything on flies.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: November 08, 2019 04:02PM

Do Torzite guide have a significantly lower coefficient of friction than, say, REC NiTi guides? Of course the Torzite guides are wider and bulkier than NiTi guides and make much more contact with the fly line and backing. A large, say 30+ pound plus pelagic fish, can make long runs through fly lines and into the backing, so guide selection for heat dissipation can be a serious concern for salt-water fly fishers. For fresh-water fly anglers? - Not so much.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 08, 2019 07:14PM

Some seem to lose site of the fact that this was started about fly rods! There is no line "coming off the reel" when casting a fly rod!

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (---.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 08, 2019 09:14PM

Also - everyone is talking about Fuji Ti with Torzite single foot guides. They do not exist except in the "Y" frames - which are heavy.
herb

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Laurent Keiff (---.33.16.93.rev.sfr.net)
Date: November 09, 2019 02:30AM

No we're not, Phil.
I'm talking 12-14+wt fly rods for pelagic fish, like for instance bluefin tuna. You'll get very long rushes from a 70lb tuna, and your line/backing will be "coming off the reel" indeed. It's been stated from the start by Tom that casting-wise, you won't gain anything with ceramics, and I agree. So it's been about fish fighting all along...

I think ceramics were from the beginning sold for their heat dissipation properties. Torzite guides have very slim ceramics indeed.
Fuji claims they've got a flatter profile than SIC, so more contact with the line, and arguably better dissipation. They also claim better smoothness to compensate higher contact area between the line and the ceramic. I'm not sure what part of those claims is true. But if I had to bet, I'd put my money on Torzite being at least as good as Titanium/SIC while being a little lighter.

_______________________________________________
If I'm not going to catch anything, then I'd rather not catch anything on flies.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: November 09, 2019 10:17AM

Laurent: The right tool for the right job. If you anticipate hooking up on numerous pelagic fish in the #70 and up category you won't do much casting since you will be fishing chum slicks you have created. Big lengths of backing will have been run in and out of your guide train repeatedly. I would not doubt that after fighting dozens of such fish some snake guides would show signs of wear. On the minus side, a snake guide is MUCH less susceptible to getting fouled by a loop in the fly line or backing - an event which produces guides ripped off the rod and/or a broken rod when a 70 lb. tuna is involved. Lefty pointed this out years ago.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 09, 2019 01:03PM

I would love to see a guide ripped off by a fish. I have certainly broken rods when hooked up but I have never seen that. On big fish I think I would be more worried about my finger getting wrapped around the line and getting ripped off. If you ever travel to poorer countries and talk to the fishermen that use hand lines, they are always missing a digit or two.

For sure ceramics are best suited for offshore but wire guides will work too. I like them on smaller fly rods mostly just for the smooth feel. When I use snakes it just feels like I am grinding on the line. I totally believe there is too much hype about ring material, a nice strong and light ceramic works just fine by any name.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: November 09, 2019 01:35PM

If a savvy builder of rod components markets a ceramic snake guide we can enjoy the best of both worlds - except guide train bulk and weight.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 09, 2019 05:23PM

The PacBay Minima guides have been close to the best of both worlds for me, although they are not ceramic.

.................

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 09, 2019 09:34PM

2X Minima's, if not using single foot light weight wire, I go for them.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: Drew Pollock (---.201-34-174.ftth.swbr.surewest.net)
Date: November 09, 2019 09:57PM

It's all about the use, right?

And who cares how far you can cast. If you can cast to fish, it's enough.

Snake guides (I favor RECs) are super robust. Any kind of ceramics or minimas are not. They bend. So it's all about what you do with them.

So if you hike through the alders all day, ceramic guides will not survive. They will bend at the base. Where snakes will shrug off any amount of abuse.

If you're on a boat, ceramics will likely work better as long as you're careful with your equipment. And for fighting larger fish or fish in current, the ceramics work better.

I fish the crazy Kenai run every year and use fly rods with all ceramic guides. But we have spares and there's no hiking in brush so it's fine.

I also fish the Silver small river run in September and the alders and other obstacles make me fish rods with snake guides. They are much more robust. You basically can't damage one. In fact, I never have. Thinking back over 20 years, I'm surprised by this. But I've bent plenty of ceramic single foot guides.

I'm just happy there are options.

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Re: ceramics on fly rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: November 10, 2019 12:31AM

"Who cares how far you can cast. If you can cast to fish, it's enough"

I routinely have to cast 130 + yards on certain beaches with metals to reach fast running fish that stay from 100 yards out to 300 yards out so casting distance is everything , Not all fish are in close , at night many species come in really really close but rarely during daytime hours.

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