Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
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> If suspending a weight from the tip-top does not
> reveal the natural curve of the blank under load
> what in blazes DOES reveal the natural curve of
> the blank?



I think attaching the tip top temporarily like you said and just having a line attached to the tip top and then a weight on the ground shows the natural bend , that's when i would trace the curve , only after that part would i attach the reel and continue on . I like the tracing idea , i know the two line method works but i welcome other methods also if they're viable.

All of this should be a mood-point; the best guide placement will be determined by the loaded and unloaded “two line static load testing” method, period! No matter how far one wishes to delve into the physics of rod dynamics, the best guide placement along any given blank is easily, precisely and repeatedly obtained by utilizing the simple two-line-static-load- testing method!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I happen to believe Phil Ewanicki is doing great work and i believe he will come up with something even more efficient . Remember folks you must experiment , there is no (be all end all ) in rod building , i used to think that way but so many convinced me to never ever accept where things are , you must keep innovating .

I look forward to Phil's inquisitive mind and his constant pushing for new ways to do things , keep up the great work Phil .

the 2-line method works if you are using the correct number of guides to begin with but you aren,t sure until you put an actual load on the line going through the guides..but Phil suggests to make your guide spacing and guide number determination with the line already loaded and passing through the guides; over a tracing of the rods natural bend to guide you..

Phil, in your initial post of this thread, you said to "For "perfect" guide placement cement the grip and reelseat to the blank, attach a reel with line to the blank, and clamp the rod securely at a 45 degree upward angle. Put on a tip-top. Use tape to secure it. Run your line from the reel through the tip-top and tie enough weight to the end of the line so the rod is deflected 90 degrees."

Running line from a reel to the tip top and then using that same line to load the rod is going to cause the blank to over flex because the line is not attached to the tip top...... it is attached to the reel which is much further down the rod. The method you described is no different and actually worse, than if you had guides that were spaced too far apart. You yourself said that once you start running the line through guides attached to the blank that the profile of the loaded rod changes.

The way I see it is that the 2 line static load method comes out the same as if you were using a single line running from the reel and through the guides to load the blank. The 2 lines means you don't have to worry about attaching the guides well enough so they don't pull off, or in the case of a conventionally wrapped casting rod, roll to the side and under the blank.

Herb I get trying new things. But some things are so simple and effective, they can't be improved upon. I feel the 2 line static load method of guide placement is one of them. It's easy as pie .....

If the loaded line is the one running from the reel and through the guides, you will actually change the way the blank flexes by where you position the guides. The idea behind the loaded line being suspended from the tip only, is that it allows the blank to take its natural curve or flex, from there you use an unloaded line to adjust the guides so that this natural curve or flex is maintained.

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I think the key here is to match the natural curve of the rod (not the line) under load with only the tip-top attached to the curve of the rod (not the line) under load with all guides attached. For one thing, this eliminates all the fuss about guide height.

It certainly does not eliminate the fuss over guide height. What has been discussed so far is a static load test. A dynamic test will require test casting to determine if there is line slap or line bunching which can certainly affect casting performance. Short small ringed guides can be placed perfectly to follow the natural bend of the blank, but it may cast just awful. For a spinning rod the reduction train guide height needs to be matched to reel size and line size and type. The stripper ring needs to be high enough with a sufficient ring size and at a sufficient distance to effectively control and choke the line coils coming from reel spool, and thus minimize line slap and line bunching going through the guides. So the static test is only part of the formula for getting a perfect guide alignment.
Norm

Thank you David, Norman, and Tom.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2019 07:18PM by Lynn Behler.

"Herb I get trying new things. But some things are so simple and effective, they can't be improved upon. I feel the 2 line static load method of guide placement is one of them. It's easy as pie"


I use to say the same thing about certain things , ( It cannot be improved upon) and all i heard was (EVERYTHING can be improved on ) and it's wrong to say (Do not experiment) but i'm starting to think i should have stuck to the way i used to think now lol.

OK moving on , I use the "Two line" method but it's not my favorite and i find it confusing while employing it for some reason , i may be the only one but that's my take on it , one of the first things i do after receiving a blank is i always flex the blank before building on it . After choosing the appropriate guide types and sizes that match the characteristics of my chosen reel i carefully lay out the reduction train and choker and then position the runners to where i believe they should go .

At this time i already have the seat and rear grip /foregrip attached permanently and i attach my reel with a full spool of line . Only the guides are not permanently attached yet but are temporarily attached , i run line through all the guides and tip top and flex the blank with a weight tied to the line and see how it looks , i make adjustments at this point to match the bend better . Rod is in 45 degree holder.

ONLY then do i tie a line to the tip and flex the bank just using the tip with no tension from the reel at first , then i apply a little tension but nothing ever changes , so far i have never needed to move a guide in one direction or another in order to have the guides match the natural bend of the blank so i have always thought the two line method doesn't work or provide me any benefit .

It doesn't matter if i have all the tension coming from the reels tightened down drag or just a line coming from the tip the two bends look identical where i never need to adjust anything that's why i find it somewhat annoying , i was convinced it provided no benefit but at least i made sure to use it to check.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2019 07:39PM by herb canter.

your never going to get the line to track the natural flex of the rod..all you can do is get close enough..to me the number of guides is more important..if you got enough guides you,ll have good enough spacing..the equal distance guide spacing system is a good example..

As Ben said the number of guides is critical for coming close to matching the blanks natural bend , i chose the smallest titanium running guides i could get away with on my surf rods , none of those giant size 8 or 10's .

that,s right Herb..the smaller guides that you can use mean you can use more guides and more guides do a better job spreading the stresses on the blank..

The advent of smaller, lighter guides has made guide placement and adequate stress distribution easier (and better) than in previous times. You no longer pay a heavy penalty for using an additional guide, or two.

..............

Agreed Ben but it's not as simple as that sounds , sure more guides will make it easier to follow the blanks natural flex characteristics but i don't want to use any more than absolutely necessary . I see many rods built that use far fewer guides than what i would prefer but the owners seem happy and they still handle most fish . If i'm building a rod i believe in utilizing all the power that the blank offers by using enough guides but at the same time making sure that even a single extra guide will NOT be added UNLESS it is clearly required.

From talking to many people who have the same surf rod blanks i have they have settled on 7 guides excluding tip , i have set mine up that way and experimented but too much of the blank was not supported optimally imo so my builds have 9 guides excluding tip , i like that extra confidence boost if i latch into a behemoth on the beach .

This site and it's people have shaped the way i feel about this topic and the archives are always informative.

I should make a point in my previous post that i forgot to make regarding the "Two line " method .

There is a good chance that the reason i didn't see a change in the flex of the blank when attaching a line just to the tip top and flexing it could be because i have only built a handful of surf rods and they all had the same type of flex characteristic's . I'm sure if i built as many as most others on the site and have experienced the wide variety of different blanks i would clearly see differences .

Maybe i just lucked out even though that's doubtful since i live Murphy's law , anyways i thought i should mention the fact that i have built very few rods compared to others.

i don,t think you lucked out Herb..you used enough guides to accomodate the rods natural flex..had you used too few guides you would have seen a difference..

Among other things, your target species plays a part in assembling your guide train. Small guide openings and large, sharp-toothed target species don't mix, what with wire bite leaders knotted to #100 abrasion leaders knotted to running line. Generalities, in general, are badly flawed.

People would be surprised just how well small light guides work for all types of fish species , i haven't run any leader/knot combinations past my tip top in decades because i find it totally unnecessary . I have caught many toothy predators including smaller king and Spanish mackerel and many blues of all sizes from the beachfront over the years without running a leader of any kind through the tip top .

Flourocarbon leaders range in length from 1 to 4 1/2 feet and work exceptionally well . I typically throw larger Crippled Herring types and large heavy spoons replacing the trebles with single VMC Siwash free swinging 5/0 and 6/0 size hooks . With metals like these even light leaders land fish consistently and light leaders are always preferred to heavy leaders in my view .

The only thing that ever goes through the guides is your braided line , no knots , no wire or heavy mono of any kind.

No knots, no wire, no heavy mono = no sharks.