For "perfect" guide placement cement the grip and reelseat to the blank, attach a reel with line to the blank, and clamp the rod securely at a 45 degree upward angle. Put on a tip-top. Use tape to secure it. Run your line from the reel through the tip-top and tie enough weight to the end of the line so the rod is deflected 90 degrees. Trace the curve of the blank on a piece of drywall, plywood, or what have you. Wrap and knot your guide feet to the blank with elastic sewing thread pulled semi-tight, then thread line through the guide train, and reattach the weight to the end of the line. Slide the guides up or down so the arc of the rod with guides duplicates the arc of the rod without guides. Mark perfect locations with wax pencil.

Phil

Two questions, the first of which is what is the purpose or advantage of only temporarily affixing the tip top?

Secondly, if the rod is held level, weight is added to the line from the reel through the tip top until the tip is pointed down (a 90 degree bend is achieved) the results would be the same? And are the results the same if the line to the weight is attached to the tip top instead of being anchored by the reel? Makes my brain hurt thinking about the force vectors but I suspect either the weight or the bend will differ when the line to the weight is not attached to the reel.

First: Some blanks twist when pressure is applied, You may wish to find the low point. Second: The results are not the same. Put all the guides 3 inches apart and note the difference in the bend of the blank between suspending a weight only by the tip-top (the natural rod bend) and suspending a weight by the tip-top and all the guides 3" apart on the blank. Sure that's extreme, but it answers your question.

Phil

Maybe it's my day to be dense or the age thing is rearing its ugly head. Regardless, I get the tip top thing, but the weight suspension process still has me befuddled. So, I'll rephrase the question. How much difference in the number of guides or significant difference in the locations of guides did you find using your described process vs suspending the weight only by the tip top? Are you and I probable to get to the same place in terms of number and location of guides?

Phil, i could not agree more with this procedure..your positioning the guides by using the line under load..this is the way the rod is going to deflect when used for fishing..

Phil & Others, The procedure you mentioned is absolutely a great way to go about spacing guides per the flex of the rod. This item by CRB is a great tool to use for such a procedure [www.mudhole.com] and this guide tubing really is a great item for easily moving guides during the process [www.mudhole.com] - Thank You

Bob McKamey
Mud Hole Custom Tackle
bobm@mudhole.com

Phil..there is one thing i would change and that is to run the line from the guide tip only and not the reel then guide tip to get the deflection that is to be traced than later copied ..you will get a truer natural bend not one that is pulling the rod tip towards the reel even though when the other guides come into play this effect is reduced..

Anglers using spinning or casting rods may not notice the difference between a guide placement which follows the natural bend of a blank under load and a guide placement which doesn't follow the natural bend, but savvy fly casters are quick to notice and value these differences.

Phil,
I achieve exactly the same thing by doing the following.

I just take the tip top of the rod blank and push it against any hard surface. The ceiling, the wall, the floor or something else.

By pushing against the tip, the rod will bend in its natural bend, and you can mark the blank accordingly - with respect to guide placement.

I believe that by hanging weight from the tip of the rod, and by simply pushing the tip of the rod against a hard surface that you will achieve identical results.

Take care

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For "perfect" guide placement cement the grip and
> reelseat to the blank, attach a reel with line to
> the blank, and clamp the rod securely at a 45
> degree upward angle. Put on a tip-top. Use tape to
> secure it. Run your line from the reel through the
> tip-top and tie enough weight to the end of the
> line so the rod is deflected 90 degrees. Trace the
> curve of the blank on a piece of drywall, plywood,
> or what have you. Wrap and knot your guide feet to
> the blank with elastic sewing thread pulled
> semi-tight, then thread line through the guide
> train, and reattach the weight to the end of the
> line. Slide the guides up or down so the arc of
> the rod with guides duplicates the arc of the rod
> without guides. Mark perfect locations with wax
> pencil.


Sounds like the ideal method to me . With that being the case i WOULD NOT vary guide locations much at all if at all and whatever the performance reveals by having guides located at what the natural bend shows so be it . With the ideal locations already being determined the only choices now are guide types and sizes .This applies more to the middle of the blank on up to the tiptop not so much the reduction guides.


I also don't feel the blank needs to be supported at extremely precise locations so if an initial layout appears off kilter where a customer would complain guides can be moved a bit without inefficiency becoming a factor but if the layout looks good following the natural bend all the better.

Great post Phil , this one should help many people in the future .

The wild card here is the internal diameter and "stand off" of the guides being used. Nonetheless, the path of your LINE through the guide train should mirror the curve of the rod blank's deflection without guides attached.

The purpose of having more guides is to follow the bend of the rod while fighting a fish and not have the line come in contact with the rod. The line rubbing the rod causes friction which weakens the line. Look in the Library and read "Static Guide Placement." It will explain a lot. Proper guide placement equalizes stress on the rod blank (less chance of the rod failing). My 2 cents.

I don't think a wet line of any type causes much friction and no measurable heat, many popular manufacturers have built rods with guides that line touch the blank at full load and they've fished and survived with no issues. Just don't let the line pass under the blank under load.

Phil, in an earlier post, you asked about guides sizes, locations, etc for champion fly casters.

If you will send me an email I will give some of that information from one of the rod builders they use.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2019 10:53PM by Phil Erickson.

The friction I was referring to was on heavy off shore rods, sorry that I did not clarify. Your point about manufactured is correct, Many manufactured rods are built the cheapest way. Reducing the number of guides by 1, 2, or more guides per rod times thousands of rods is more profit for manufacturer. There are many factors that go into building a rod and it starts with the type of rod, weight of line used and in the environment fishing. Yes I have fished with many rods off the shelf with no problem. You get what you put into anything.

The way I see it, following the procedure that Phil outlined in his initial post is NOT going to result in the blank taking a natural curve. It is going to cause the blank to over bend. Especially in the upper third of the blank. The only way for the blank to achieve its' natural bend is to attach the line directly to the tip of the blank and load it using that line. And what is positioning the rod at a 45 degree angle going to change when you're deflecting the rod 90 degrees relative to the position of the blank?

The only thing that is going to change is the amount of weight you're going to need to deflect the blank 90 degrees, once you start running the line through the guides. It's going to take more weight to achieve a 90 degree deflection because the guides are going to move the line closer to the blank, a LOT closer to the blank if you follow the procedure outlined in the initial post. The more closely the line follows the curve of the blank, the more of the blank's power is put into play.

Maybe I'm missing something, but IMO there is no more simple way to perfectly place your guides than using the 2 line static load placement system.

The two line static test works for me.
Norm

If suspending a weight from the tip-top does not reveal the natural curve of the blank under load what in blazes DOES reveal the natural curve of the blank?

All rod "actions" are progressive. The greater the load, the further back towards the butt will the 90 degree bend occur/move. This is true with both fast and slow action blanks, and all actions in-between.

................

With the two line static test, the first line is tied to the tip top and then tied to a heavy or immovable object. This line is used to flex the rod into it natural bend. The second line is run from the attached reel through the taped on guides and tip top and is tied to a light weight which just hangs in place from the tip without causing the rod to bend. This second line is used to align and visualize line flow through the guides along the blank’s natural curve when the blank is flexed via the first line. This allows for the guides to be aligned without them affecting the rods natural bend. In case this is not clear, here is an article from the library describing this procedure.
[www.rodbuilding.org]
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2019 08:45PM by Norman Miller.