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Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Bob Ginther (---.stormvip.com)
Date: September 13, 2019 01:20PM

I am going to build a 9' travel surf rod on a RodGeeks blank SRF90MMF4 which is a 4pc blank rated for 8-20lb mono and 1/2 to 2 1/2 oz lures. I plan to use a Saltist 4500 spinning reel loaded with 30lb to 40 lb braid targeting Roosters, Jack Crevalle, snappers, etc., casting lures. Given the braid size I am building this rod with a New Guide Concept layout using Fuji KW double foot guides.

Using the 27x formula for locating the choke guide, I calculated that the choke guide should be approximately 64 inches from the front face of the spool. (61 mm spool diameter times 27 equals 1647 mm divided by 25.4 equals approximately 64 to 65 inches.) If I locate the choke guide 64 inches from the front of the spool face that leaves only 18 inches to the tip of the rod. Figuring that I need 10 guides for this 9 foot rod plus a tiptop, and 3 of the guides will be in the reduction train, that means I am somehow supposed to locate 7 running guides within that last 18 inches? That does not seem feasible or logical. Is the Saltist 4500 too big of a reel for this 9 foot surf rod? The reel seat location on the blank (19" from the butt to the bottom of reel seat) matches the reel seat location of the 9 foot St. Croix Triumph 4 pc surf rod that utilizes the same blank that I am using. What am I doing wrong here?

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (172.58.45.---)
Date: September 13, 2019 03:43PM

27X and NCG aren't the same thing. Nothing is engraved in stone, everything is a compromise.
You may get some help at www.stripersonline.com.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2019 04:25PM by Spencer Phipps.

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: September 13, 2019 04:26PM

The Daiwa Saltist 4500 is a beast and weighs in at around 22 ounces , reels that weigh in this range balance best on surf rods in the 10 to 11 foot range and will make a surf rod a bit bottom heavy on 8 and 9 foot sticks but by no means is a a bad choice for what you're doing . It's spool diameter is indeed a bit large for it's size compared to the likes of Shimano and Penn spinners in the 4500 size designation.

With your choice of 30 to 40 pound braid and using the 27 X method which you found to show a choke guide location of around 64" you won't have a lot of room left over for many running guides but that's typical when using the 27 X method on rods that are shorter than 11 or 12 feet in length . Do not just assume that since a blank is a certain length it needs this many guides , let the blanks natural bend tell you where the runners need to go and how many are needed .

Lots of people have asked the exact question you're asking about the number of running guides when using the 27 X method to locate the choke . The complaint is using the 27 X method puts the choke so far out that there is no room for running guides , Tom has always replied that it makes no difference the most important aspect is getting the choke point location correct and i agree . If the tip top turns out to be where a running guide was going to be located that's A OK .

Now if you were using a reel with say a 54 mm spool diameter or you were planning to use 20 pound braid instead of 40 you would be able to move the choke back a bit and not notice any performance degradation but with the reel you're using and the line type and diameter you are spooling up with there will be very little wiggle room with the choke location , maybe a few inches .

Most important thing is getting the reduction guides correct and the choke guide correct , forget about the runners until you complete the former.

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: September 13, 2019 04:56PM

T'he distance from the choke guide to the tip of the rod is of no concern. For the same reel, two rods one at 7 feet long and one at 12 feet long, both would both have the same choke guide location. But there would be a different number of running guides to take up the additional length on the longer rod.

The important thing is the distance from the reel to the choke guide, not the distance from the choke guide to the tip. Don't force a square peg in the round hole.

You don't need any more running guides than whatever you need to take up the distance from the choke guide to the tip. If it only needs a couple or three, than that's all it needs. Maybe your rod only needs 6 guides. Why marry this idea that it must have 10 guides?

With braid, it is possible you can locate the choke guide closer than if you were using mono. The 27X factor was derived as a distance that works very well for any and all line types.

...............

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Bob Ginther (---.stormvip.com)
Date: September 13, 2019 04:56PM

Thanks Herb. I will lay it out that way and do some test casting.

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: September 13, 2019 05:12PM

Well there you go Bob , the man who is responsible for coming up with the 27 X method himself , i hope his comments eliminate any further confusion.

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Bob Ginther (---.stormvip.com)
Date: September 13, 2019 05:33PM

Yes, thank you both. Tom must have posted his response at the same time I did, I didn't see his before.

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Bob Ginther (162.245.179.---)
Date: September 14, 2019 10:07AM

Update. I layed out the guides (all Fuji KW's) using 30, 25, 16 to 6's on out. I used 4 running guides including the choke. It looks good. I located the reduction guides using the line from reel spindle to top of choker, and got a perfect bullseye looking through the runners to the choke. Concern I have is that when I static load test, the line gap on each side of the third reduction guide (the 16) is not ideal. It really looks like it could benefit from removing the 16 and replacing it with a 20 and 12. I am assuming a 12-6 jump to the choke guide is better than a 16-6 jump. But that would mean 4 reduction guides. Is that a problem? Tom K's article suggests 4 reduction guides generally is for the heaviest surf rods. Assuming I can still get a good bullseye with the fourth reduction guide as proposed here, is this worth experimenting with, or is the 4th reduction guide a no go from the start?

Also, fyi the 16 reduction guide sits right on the female ferrule. I understand that in it itself is not critical, but does it add anything to this analysis?

Oh, and in anticipation of possible concern over the size 6 running guides, I use an FG knot for braid to mono leader, and do not bring knots through the guides. Even if it inadvertently happens on a retrieve, I never cast a knot through the guides.

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Bob Ginther (162.245.179.---)
Date: September 14, 2019 10:08AM

sorry double post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2019 10:10AM by Bob Ginther.

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Bob Ginther (162.245.179.---)
Date: September 14, 2019 10:09AM

sorry, double post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2019 10:11AM by Bob Ginther.

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: September 14, 2019 11:12AM

The best thing to do is to mock it up, look at it and try it. What works, works.

.............

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Re: Help with NGC guide layout on 9' surf rod
Posted by: Bob Ginther (162.245.179.---)
Date: September 14, 2019 11:24AM

Thanks Tom. I was hoping you would say that!

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