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U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 10:58AM

Those of you with experience with U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme (not high build), have any of you had problems with it leveling? I'm having considerable problems with it and I find it very strange.

I just switched over from RodDancer ThreadMaster and, of course, I used FlexCoat for the prior 25 years. I bought this Dura Gloss LS Supreme last Fall. Maybe it's this given 8 ounce package I bought, but I am having all sorts of problems getting it to level beautifully. The problem I'm having is particularly with the second coat. I built the rod last fall and had him bring it back from Alaska to add a second coat (last minute build - as usual). The instructions state that if finish is over 48 hours old you need to scuff the surface with a Scotch Brite pad which I thoroughly did with a gray Scotch Brite pad. They were all scuffed completely.

I used everything in my arsenal (spatula, brush, more epoxy, removing epoxy, and heat) only to watch it move after I thought I had it right where I wanted it. I would have normally expected, to achieve perfect outcome. It literally moved away from the edges of guide wraps. I mean, I make a special effort to make sure at the ferrules of fly rods to get excellent coverage...it pulled away! On this given butt wrap, (7" in total) which is primarily decals (3" area of Abalone), it literally went wavy in an area (an area of about 1 3/4" long by about 3/8" wide), horizontally of all things. on a bare spot on the blank. No, I didn't use Madeira thread so silicone is not an issue. I ended up using more LS Supreme than I normally like to use, otherwise I couldn't get it to settle down at all. Don't get me wrong, 7 of the guides are acceptable...but not much better. Oh, no bubbles (I've never had a problem with that) Now I'm afraid to use it on a second coat. The Blank is a North Fork F-968 (9'6" 8 weight) Fly Rod. There's not a thing that's not top notch on this rod so I'm more than dismayed!

I do have another 32 ounce kit I could try just to compare but in all my years of building rods I've never seen anything close to this so I am a little more than leery about using it again. I could go over it with either ThreadMaster or FlexCoat but I'm very concerned about compatibility. Normally I wouldn't worry about it at all. Now I'm going to have to add a third coat of something to correct these flaws. And then, will the Dura Gloss LS Supreme fill in and level as I would normally expect? I've never had to do that before in all of my years of building rods.

I know we all have different preferences, processes and methods and it wouldn't surprise me that I may not be compatible with this finish. I'm just so used to seeing a perfectly level, crystal clear, glass like finish. Not quite sure how I want to proceed at this point and thought I'd bounce it off of you guys. Anyone have this experience?

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Ron Schneider (---.mid.dyn.suddenlink.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 11:04AM

Sounds like some kind of contamination.
Perhaps left on the blank from use, or maybe in the mixing container?
I have had similar problems on repairs of well used rods,
the cure was to wipe down any area I was coating with Lacquer Thinner.

Best wishes,
Ron Schneider
Schneider's Rod Shop
Mountain Home, Arkansas
[www.schneidersrods.com]
schndrod@suddenlink.net
870-424-3381

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: John Cates (---.austin.res.rr.com)
Date: August 28, 2019 11:14AM

I don't normally comment on other brands of finish, but this is classic silicone contamination. In the time that rod has been away it has been coated with some kind of silicone, WD40, or the like. You will have to clean that off first with a citrus based cleaner. Clean it and clean it again. In our humble opinion, as long as the surface is clean and dry, no scuffing is required.

Just a thought, could the contamination be coming from the scotch pad? You never know...

Good luck.

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 11:20AM

Thanks John, sorry it kept giving me an error "Must include your full name and email address". I had already done that. Well, it kept posting.

Anyway, I cleaned this entire rod with Denatured Alcohol at least twice and more like 3 times.

Thanks Ron. My mixing contained came out of one of those plastic sleeves. I don't think so.

I'll tell you guys, I've never seen anything like it. I'll let it cured and really clean it. Wow, to me it looks worse than when I got it back. Talk about unbelievable frustration.

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 28, 2019 11:21AM

Look at the finish in your mixing cup - did it level? Most likely you used too much finish or something is on the surface of the first application that it causing the finish to repel the second application.

...........

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 28, 2019 11:23AM

The last step in surface prep should never be a solvent wipe. That's what you do first, then scuff with Scotchbrite. If you finished off with an alcohol wipe, I feel reasonably sure that this is your problem.

I wouldn't go overboard with the scuffing of a previous application unless it has been on there for about a week. Epoxy will tend to do fine on top of a previous application, with no durability issues, for many days after the first application.

............

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Bob McKamey (---.se.biz.rr.com)
Date: August 28, 2019 11:26AM

If you cleaned the rod and wraps with denatured alcohol, it is best to wait 24 to 30 hours for the residue of the alcohol to completely evaporate before applying another application of thread finish. Mild solvents, denatured alcohol, 92% Isopropyl alcohol, all can cause problems if they have not completely evaporated. Not saying that I would use a denatured alcohol, but if you did, it has to completely evaporate or will create issues.

Bob McKamey
Mud Hole Custom Tackle
bobm@mudhole.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2019 02:11PM by Bob McKamey.

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 12:02PM

Alcohol wipe is likely the problem?

You know, I do mountains of epoxy work and I often clean with Denatured Alcohol prior to application and I've never had a problem. Now, I was concerned about this so I last cleaned it about 4 hours prior to applying the Dura Gloss. The only potential problem would be possibly remaining solvent, which, with Denatured Alcohol would be gone very quickly anyway. It is one of the cleanest solvents one can use. I used to, most all the time, thin FlexCoat with Xylene and it would perform exceedingly well. So, these epoxies are typically very tolerant of proper solvents as long as it doesn't exceed certain percentages, say 10-20%.

Plus, the odd leveling where it wasn't withdrawing from the edges? In fact it just didn't level very well at all. Did it level in the cup? Perfectly.

As for the amount applied. I apply the minimum until it flows. On a number of guides I had to add a bit just to get it to level as well as it did. It clearly does not cooperate like FlexCoat does, at least in my experience. Then it wants to run off the top of the guide feet. There is plenty on there where it should stay on the top of the guide foot.

I did heat it up prior to mixing. I used hot tap water and that was it. I let them return to room temperature but it's already getting cool here in MN so I was concerned about keeping the temperature up a bit.

How quickly does it cure to where I can work on it? I need this done in 28 hours. Should I heat up my shop? It's 71 degrees in here now.

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 12:02PM

What...24-30 hours...seriously?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2019 12:03PM by Tom Harder.

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 28, 2019 12:42PM

The last step in any surface preparation should never be a solvent wipe. That is the first step, never the last.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

............

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 01:10PM

Okay.

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 02:06PM

Copy that with respect to a solvent wipe.

As far as I am concerned, I will never use denatured alcohol to do a wipe of the blank. Just too many issues with it. I tried it a few times, but in nearly every case I had issues. So, I don't use it any more.


Actually, I have found that simpile green cleaner works perfectly well for a wipe down of the blank and I have had 0 issues using that.

I have also found that Windex window cleaner works very well as a wipe down on a blank before doing any finish application. Again, 0 issues using Windex.

Take care

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 28, 2019 05:27PM

Tom,
From your description, if indeed seems you are experiencing a classic, if not extreme, contamination problem and from the severity, most likely silicone. You have been building rods for a long time without similar, previous problems, so I am more than confident in your abilities. You weren’t warming the rod or finish mixture on the kitchen stove while frying bacon, were you? Sorry to joke as I am certain it is of no joking matter to you.
You have received solid advice from veteran builders.
The surfaces of the areas where the epoxy was repelled due to contamination STILL POSSES THE CONTAMINATION and will continue to repel additional coats unless removed. I used to wipe-down a piece with acetone just prior to bonding composite fabrics to it. I have since adopted Tom’s, Roger’s and Mr. O’Quinn’s procedure sanding or scoffing AFTER any solvent has been applied; it just makes sense. But that will certainly be quite an undertaking considering having to work around guide feet and not sanding into the wrapping thread.
I have a suggestion, but only a suggestion as I have not had the need let alone tried it. You will have to experiment prior to possibly making the rod worse. There is a product called “Smoothie” used by auto paint shops to eliminate “fish-eyes” in paint jobs. First of all, it is designed for use with catalyzed automotive urethanes and I do not how compatible it is with our finish epoxies. Secondly, it is a silicone-based product and any additional coats will require Smoothie be added to them as well.
Drastic times can demand drastic measures. One way or the other, you have quite a few fellow builders concerned with and interested in the outcome of your dilemma. Please keep us posted but most of all, GOOD LUCK!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 28, 2019 05:31PM

Silicone is more likely to result in hundreds of small pin-holes across the surface. The scents and similar in various solvents generally result in large areas being repelled, thin, etc.

.............

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 28, 2019 06:49PM

Whether the contamination is silicone or something else, pin holes or larger areas, Smoothie could possibly be the best “plan B” to ease the woes Tom H. is encountering. After all, that is the main concern here.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 07:04PM

I have a product called system 20 Fisheye Eliminator. It is a European product equivalent to 3M's Soothie product. I'm sure it wouldn't even take part of a drop. Also, could I not put a piece of Madeira thread in my Epoxy and won't it also neutralize the silicone? I'm afraid I don't understand this part of the solution. I've read it from Billy. It makes little sense to me.

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 07:39PM

Okay, it's some 13, 14 hours since I applied the finish. Out of 17 distinct separate places where there is finish, I counted at least 13 or 14 with finish defects. Still, I am unaccustomed to my finish having problems. The strangest places are where it's shown up. Like the entire guide will be perfect, then there is one spot, on the top of the guide foot, where there is a "pock" mark, I'll call it. Clearly, there is finish beneath it. All I can figure is that these strange spots are fisheyes. Can I add Silicone thread to my epoxy mix or should I try the Fisheye solutions? (By the way, my research into tSystem 20 (Upol makes it) and the Smoothie stuff indicates that it actually introduces silicone to the mix to "condition" it so it no longer repels.

Any other ideas?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2019 09:43PM by Tom Harder.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 28, 2019 08:24PM

Tom H.,
Sorry, but I am unfamiliar with swishing some Madera thread in the epoxy. Assuming you are referring to Billy V., who could argue with his knowledge? If you go the additive route, you are correct that only a tiny, unmeasurable portion of a drop will be required, at least with the Smoothie (can’t speak for the other you mentioned). Have faith and, again, GOOD LUCK!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 28, 2019 08:36PM

Those are not "fisheyes." They are areas where something has repelled the 2nd finish application, which is quite common when you have used a solvent as the last step in your surface preparation.

I gave an epoxy seminar at one of the recent Expos. Attendees were surprised at how little I did. They were even more surprised when I ruined the finish by dragging a tool through it after it had started to set up. 10 minutes later, it was perfect, again. Do less. All this stuff about adding more finish to help it level (it will do that on its own if you'll let it, per your mixing cup result) and adding chemicals to your mix, etc., etc., is counter productive. Simplify. If the U-40 isn't to your liking, go back to Flex Coat. See if that solves the problem. And yes, you can apply Flex Coat over the U-40.

................

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Re: U-40 Dura Gloss LS Supreme
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 28, 2019 09:06PM

Okay Tom, I get that. I accept that okay?

But, I believe I have possibly several problems here. A; the "fisheyes" do look like fisheyes I've seen in other finishes. There are probably 3-4 guides affected by this. B: That the finish is pulling away from edge areas is a real issue. Numerous edges in fact, 5 of them. C: If it's due to Solvent remnant then why is it not more wide spread? Why have I not had trouble in the past? My wife looked at it and said, "you're overreacting". These flaws are small and not severe whatsoever. Still, I've never experienced them before. I've been using solvents for 30 years in my rodbuilding, why is it only showing up only now?

There is only one thing that is truly different...the finish I'm using. Now, is it possible Dura Gloss LS Supreme is more sensitive to these compounds? Possibly, I just have no idea. So, I think I've got two problems here; 1st, some kind of silicone contamination. I would not be surprised if, up at "Salmon Camp", there are guys spraying around the likes of WD-40. 2nd, Judging by my experience, I think LS Supreme may be more sensitive to solvents like Denatured Alcohol.

So, my solutions; The solvent is an easy one; don't use them any longer. That's easy. But, how do I clean it up now with a fresh finish on it (14 hours old - it is solid)? Next is the problem of how do I overcome the potential silicone contamination? I need to get another finish on this rod tonight, so I am open to any suggestions. But, in my reading in searched here, I have found others who put a strand of Madeira in their finish and it somehow "normalizes" the finish in order that it not repel. OR, I have this fisheye solution (Upol - System 20 Fisheye Eliminator), I could put a fraction of a drop in and try a bit of it and see how it affects it.

Suggestions are accepted because I need to put this finish on in the next 2 hours!

Thank you to everyone who's weighed in. Regards!

Tom

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