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best guides
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (72.239.229.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 04:52PM

Abrasion and heat cause lines to wear and to break, but I can't find any test data about which guide materials and guides are the most slippery and best dissipate heat. Can this information be found someplace besides advertisements and testimonials?

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Re: best guides
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 05:51PM

I don't believe there are definitive tests showing heat dissipation and slickness Phil but if i knew i was battling big fish that were known for long brutal drag out battles i would opt for SIC or Torzite . Some choose roller guides , to each their own. The overwhelming majority of anglers do not engage in long drawn out battles where one would be concerned about this , most land their fish very quickly .

As for your comment below guide materials as in "Frame" construction is not what we're talking about , frame type , construction and style will wildly differ based on the application . I believe you're asking about information on ceramics that make up the ring material

" I can't find any test data about which guide materials and guides are the most slippery and best dissipate heat"


CTS shows slickness tests between Torzite and SIC with Torzite proving to be more slick but it's hardness is virtually identical .

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 05:54PM

I know you're a hard data man Phil...

[global.kyocera.com]

SiC is not referred to as the best but Kyocera seems to always goes to SiC when heat dissipation is primary. Lots to explore here.

Fuji consults directly with Kyocera in developing ring materials.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2019 05:55PM by Jim Ising.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 06:04PM

Single Crystal Sapphire edges SIC in the hardness test but not by much at all leading me to believe SIC is still the ultimate for heat dissipation . Unfortunately there is no charts showing how smooth a surface can be made to be so nothing definitive which always seems to be the case.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 07:32PM

I would think the quality of the ring material and how well it is constructed and polished would mean as much as data on a specific material. SIC is used for sandpaper, which I don't think would be a good choice to line your guide frames with.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (172.58.45.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 07:35PM

There has been a easy physical test shown to me 30+ years ago. Take some 8 lb or similar line and cut off two 3ft. pieces. Run the line through both a lesser and SiC guide, now saw the lines back and forth with a little tension, 8 or 10 swipes and low end guides will first change the line to a flat ribbon, then fail. Same with SiC guide, 4 - 5 times more, no damage.
I've done the test many times.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 07:59PM

Spencer specifically mentions " Low End" guides

"Run the line through both a lesser and SiC guide'


I would be shocked if even modern Aluminum Oxide would cause 8lb mono to fail after rubbing back and forth under tension 50 times let alone 8 or 10 times. Not saying it's not possible just that i would be extremely surprised.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 08:16PM

I wonder if anyone is really concerned with guide wear or hardness or durability on nearly any guide that has a ceramic style insert.

I suppose that if one is using braid and is running their line through mud so that the line acts as sandpaper, that there might be some issue, but even for big fish that do not require roller guides, does anyone really have any issues with any of the guides, say Alconite and above - with respect to cost?

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Re: best guides
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 08:52PM

Roger

" I wonder if anyone is really concerned with guide wear or hardness or durability on nearly any guide that has a ceramic style insert"



I asked the same but then i remembered Phil , Phil loves this stuff as do many of us . Phil is a personal favorite of mine and these types of post is one of the reasons why .

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (72.239.229.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 09:58PM

Sounds like SIC is the right stuff. This issue may not relate to fresh water anglers, but there are some hefty hot-rod species in the salt capable of extended, high-tension, high-speed runs that make line friction and heating an issue.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 10:42PM

Phil,
Since there are some hefty hot-rod species in the salt capable of extended, high-tension, high speed runs that make line friction and heating an issue - What guides do these fishermen ask to be put on their highly stressed rods?

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Re: best guides
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 24, 2019 01:48AM

Don't forget the dreaded powerboat fish that lurks in fresh and saltwater, can't tell you how many times i have seen people mistakenly hook into one of those , thing that always baffled me is how they all watch in amazement as their entire spool of line is emptied instead of immediately grabbing the spool to break off lol.

If this happens to you , break off , mono and braid wreaks devastation to all types of sea life. If you run into a bunch of discarded line on a shoreline please remove it .

Thank you kindly


When purposely targeting the powerboat fish choose SIC , good call Phil.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (72.239.229.---)
Date: August 24, 2019 10:46AM

Roger: I asked first.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (72.239.229.---)
Date: August 24, 2019 11:23AM

Classic demonstration of friction (and resulting heat) on monofilament: Take a 5' piece of, say, #30 monofilament, take a double wrap of one end around one hand, pass the mono behind a thick wad of dry rag being held by an assistant. Be sure the mono does NOT touch the skin of your assistant! Take a double wrap of the the mono around the other hand. Pull the mono tight into a "U" shape around the rag and pull the mono back and forth quickly, maintaining firm tension against the rag. The soft cloth will melt mono like butter. A big, running fish and 8 or 9 guide rings can and will heat your line and weaken or break it - how easily/quickly depends upon your guide rings' smoothness heat dispersion capabilities and number. BTW: A wet rag dipped in muddy, sediment-filled water will also cause line failure.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 24, 2019 02:54PM

I think I'll send those guides with the dry rag rings back! The hottest fish I have experience with are small tuna and bonefish and I've not had any trouble with guides. I build with SIC for rods aimed to these species, exc for fly rods on which I use wire guides. I've not experienced trouble so far. I've never felt that my line was damaged by guides. I've never had a guide get grooved, even old cheapies. But I've had the old cheapie tiptops groove. So I always use SIC. Exc on fly rods.

I think our modern guide rings are pretty much bullet-proof except possibly for the hot salt species for which I have no or limited experience. I think we tend to overthink the whole thing about rings. Where we should be paying attention is in the area frame design for strength, flex, corrosion resistance, appearance, and line control. We have many more options and trade-offs to consider with frames

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 24, 2019 03:21PM

The sawing motion test is not equivalent to fighting fish ! The fast strong run of a strong fish takes the line through the guides one time going out and usually into cool water.

I am not debating that the fast trip through the guides heats up the line some, but not like a sawing motion.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: August 24, 2019 08:39PM

All this talk of sawing: zzzzzzz

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (72.239.229.---)
Date: August 24, 2019 10:19PM

Ever wonder why anglers who target really big, really strong fish use roller guides exclusively? It's not because they are low-maintenance alternatives to ring guides.

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Re: best guides
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 25, 2019 01:57AM

" Ever wonder why anglers who target really big, really strong fish use roller guides exclusively"?





Actually ....no , i have not wondered about that , i am wondering where this thread is going however and why the apprehension and sudden disillusion toward ceramic ringed guides . Are you taking on a new challenge where you will now be engaged in battling oceanic giants ?

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Re: best guides
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (72.239.229.---)
Date: August 25, 2019 11:45AM

I asked a question. I got an answer, a good one: Torzite or SIC. Then my question was dismissed as superfluous because abrasion and heat generated by contact between line and guide are supposedly of no concern. I hope my concern about and care to prevent line failure from guide friction are justified by the next (BIG) fish I hook up to, and I hope some of you share this "problem".

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