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Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Fred Kneipp (---.cnrocmta01.res.dyn.suddenlink.net)
Date: August 19, 2019 12:02PM

I am going to convert 2 conventual stand up off shore rods to spiral wrapped guides. How many transitional guides, at what position and spacing should the guides be placed for the 0 to 180 transition. Any help is appreciated.

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 19, 2019 01:37PM

I wouldn't use any transition guides, but that's just me. You don't have to "take" the line to the bottom of the rod - it'll go there naturally if you'll just let it.

But, others like a standard Revolver Type spiral - 0, 60 - 120 and 180 all occurring within about 12 to 14 inches from the 0 degree butt guide.

...........

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 19, 2019 07:00PM

Fred,
When starting to build rods about four years ago, I had never even heard of a spiral-wrap, AKA Acid-wrap. In a relatively short period of time, and thanks to this site (Tom K. in particular) I have become a huge advocate and promoter of the concept. The benefits are much more profound than the outward appearance of the rod.
A multitude of methods are employed for spiral- wrapped guides. Tom K. prefers the 0*-180*, simple spiral, over about a foot distance between the two. While this allows the line (and consequently rod torque) the benefit of getting to the bottom very quickly, the line will rub the side of the blank. There are those who will incorporate a 90* bumper guide within this approach to keep the line off the blank. Then, there is the 0*, 60*, 120*, 180*system. While these may be considered the basic spiral-wrap techniques, there are certainly others, including Rich Forhan’s trial 540* spiral, yes, 1-1/2 times around the blank! All said, while they all possess their own certain benefits; they all work. It all boils down to what one BELIEVES is the best way to accomplish the task at hand.
I am amongst the school to prefer keeping the line from touching the blank for numerous, obvious and taught reasons, especially when casting distance is involved. Additionally, when considering the tremendous, sawing action of braid under the tension of a 100lb tuna can impose on a blank, avoiding contact between the two must be a trophy-saving (possibly rod-saving) benefit. Therefore, I have adopted a modified 0, 60, 120, 180* guide orientation for my spirals which end-up actually being closer to 20, 140, 160, 180*, dependant on the reel and blank. The up and down guides (20* ,140*) are positioned so that the line just misses the blank by approximately .060in. with the remaining two guides in line with the line’s natural path. Although requiring as much as 24in to accomplish getting the line to 180*, the 160* guide is virtually there anyway and contributing to the benefit of the guides being on the bottom. Admittedly, with the butt guide 20* off-center, the line will stack to that side of a non-levelwind reel, but that is what one’s thumb is for, no matter what the orientation of the guides. When one examines both the X and Y axis of a rod, this spiral method produces the straightest line path other than allowing the line to rub the blank or, even better, going diagonally through the middle of it (and, yes, I have given it thought, imagine that).
So, pick-your-poison! Hopefully others will contribute, particularly veterans with more experience than me. I am here to learn even though I am happier-than-a pig-in-slop with my present spiral builds.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 19, 2019 09:28PM

Rich never actually advocated going 540 degrees around the blank - it was something he did simply to prove that it would not harm casting distance to any practical degree. Obviously, there is no need to do it and Rich wouldn't advocate it.

............

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Richard Forhan (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: August 19, 2019 11:08PM

Tom’s right. However, I loaned out that 540 degree TRIAL rod so many times that I forgot who had it last. So whoever has it, I want it back, it’s the only one like that I ever built, and it worked fine.

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 20, 2019 12:22AM

Rich and Tom,
I am totally aware Rich Forhan’s “540 spiral-wrap” was “just because he could” and to prove a spiral-wrap casts as far as conventionally placed guides, of which I certainly agree. It was simply included here to demonstrate the diversity of what spiral-wraps can be. I still use that article when explaining the benefits of a spiral-wrap to naysayers. Thanks, Rich! If I had that rod, I might consider lying to, or hiding it from, you as well simply because of its profound proof of the how well a spiral-wrap actually works; nah, I’d tell ‘ya. Hopefully enough of the masses read this to enable you to reunite you with your brain-fart-experiment (lol yet seriously).
The initial point I was attempting to make concerning spiral-wraps is that the mechanics are totally up to the builder; just make the line travel in the straightest path possible, whichever method you choose. I am confident any builder or angler will discover, realize and admit to the benefits immediately upon fishing a spiral-wrapped rod!!! I have experienced the profound difference first-hand and, from now on, will always mount guides where they perform the best, on the bottom!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Fred Kneipp (---.cnrocmta01.res.dyn.suddenlink.net)
Date: August 20, 2019 11:19AM

Thank you all for your feedback. After spending 40 years in the oil business and taking up rod building for a hobby it is refreshing to be involved in something where the experts freely share their knowledge!

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 20, 2019 01:20PM

Fred,
With only four years of experience, I can hardly be considered an expert such as Tom and Rich, many others on this site as well. You are correct in that most on this site “…freely share their knowledge”, and by utilizing such, anyone can drastically flatten their learning curve; I would not be where I am today without this site and its many members!
I am certain to not be the only one curious how your first spiral-wrap goes. Keep us informed.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: David Sytsma (---.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com)
Date: August 23, 2019 10:29PM

Gentlemen,

I've never built a spiral wrapped rod, am aware of them, and have briefly seen one. I've been promising myself that I would build at least one after reading all the accolades over the years on the Rodboard, and I'm tired of spending as much time during protracted battles with 100# plus tuna fighting the rod as well as the fish. So here we go. I've got a 7' Phenix Black Diamond Hybrid PHD700X3H (60-130#) blank and an Okuma Makaira SeA 50 wide reel. This blank is a warranty replacement for one that snapped on a big tuna a couple of years ago. I have the Fuji HB guides with SiC rings which were retrieved from the broken rod; the guides from butt to tip were 25, 20,16, two 12's,and four 10's. If I create a spiral wrap, do I use the original guide sizes with the 20, 16, and the 12's making the transition from the size 25 butt guide? Obviously I'll be test casting the rod and adding or subtracting runners as needed before final wrapping. I've got about a month to build this which should be more than sufficient, but I'd welcome any thoughts you have for my first effort.

Dave Sytsma

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 10:46PM

David,
If you are fighting 130 lb and higher fish, why don't you have roller guides on your rods?

When I look at the tuna fishing shows, I didn't see any of the tuna rods that did not have roller guides on them. Perhaps, I didn't see all of the rods, so I may be mistaken.

Also, if fighting such big fish, why don't you have the rod in a rod holder to take the stress of the fish?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2019 10:47PM by roger wilson.

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: David Sytsma (---.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com)
Date: August 24, 2019 07:26PM

Roger,

On the long range boats I've fished on, actually very few of the rods have rollers. I can safely say that 95% of the rods are using conventional guides. I made one with rollers a few years ago and it worked fine, but I sold it to a guy. Also, roller guides much more expensive than ringed guides; it's not hard to spend well over $200 on the roller guides alone. I can't recall a time when somebody's conventional guide failed during a fight, but I've heard of rings popping out of their frames which I thankfully haven't experienced. This is stand up fishing, so we're not in chairs or using rail mounted holders.

Everybody is wearing a fighting belt of some type, it's hard to fish without one and most of the time unless you are extremely strong that rod is going to end up on the rail at some point. Problem is when you are working a fish of that size and strength, the rod often wants to torque when deeply bent. As I see it, I've got two options to circumvent this; use a gimbal pin or spiral wrap a rod. From what I've been reading, the spiral wrap is an excellent option.

Dave Sytsma

Re: Spiral Wrap on a conventional stand up rod
Posted by: Tony Waclawski (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: August 30, 2019 07:34AM

Dave.
I just finished 2 Phenix jig rods spiral for tuna speed jigging.
I called the guys at Phenix and they gave me some starting point spacing and ring size. Very helpful.
Rest of the help I got from just reading here and in the magazine. Tony

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