The diameter of a spin-reel spool, the type of line being used, the thickness of the line being used, the ambient temperature (thus the flexibility of the line), the inside diameter of the guides, the distance between the center of the guides and the blank, the spacing of the guides, the number of guides, the material in the guide ring - all these combine to determine the best guide treatment for any particular rod. Scientific measurement of how each of these variables affect a rod's performance are too expensive to be practical. This leaves the rod builder with two alternatives: (1) trusting the "feelings" of assorted strangers and advertisers or (2) measuring the results [distance & accuracy] of various blank/reel/line/guide/spacing set-ups.

AND?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2019 01:44PM by John DeMartini.

Absolutely.

Also, we all have minds and we have all been given common sense. Use both for the best result.

Be safe

Wait a minute.

If "Scientific measurement . . .. are too expensive . . .", would not alternative (2) "measuring the results . . ." also be too expensive? If so, your only remaining alternative might be the "feelings" of we, the assorted strangers.

There might be a third alternative - the major rod builders for the trade. I'm thinking of names including Orvis, Winston, T&T, to name just three for example. I very strongly suspect that if their truly were near magical combinations of guides and line and reels and etc. they and their marketing folks would be all over it. As it is, it appears probable there are multiple ways to get the best from a blank material and components, and those combinations are not secrets.

Donald, I'm always appreciated of your posts!!

For many if not most commercial rod operations - cost is the main consideration, not all-out performance. The retail business is what it is and the most successful products are not necessarily the best (Microsoft Windows comes to mind...) but rather the ones that are better marketed and/or are able to sell for less than the competition. Following the commercial rod mfgs might get you to very acceptable, but it won't land you anywhere close to optimum.

Having said that, there is a limit to what any rod blank can do. Take any of the best guide systems out there, set them up perfectly and you will be hard pressed to find 1/2% of difference between them. A rod blank can only cast a given weight so far; can only deliver so much sensitivity; etc., etc. etc. So then you have to start looking at other aspects that aren't normally associated with "performance" but which certainly play their role - balance; weight; recovery; durability; etc., etc.

Lacking scientific means to determine such, the rod builder simply needs to try various set-ups until, with objectivity, he or she "knows" that the best overall set-up has been met.

...............

for me sensitivity is line based not rod based..the highest modulous most costly graphite rod using mono line pales in comparison to a glass rod with braided line..i have fished next to people using mono on graphite with chatter baits complaining that they can barely feel it..they try my home made glass rod with power pro and theiir jaws drop..they can,t believe the difference..it,s the line not the rod..now you can shoot me..lol.

Ben,
In a word, you nailed it.

To feel a fish, you need a transmission line for the vibration. . A line that does not stretch is a better transmission line than a line that does stretch.

Many many very good fishier folks employ the fingers on the line - with the line pointed straight toward the lure. This technique effectively removed the rod from the feel equation and instead the feel is essentially a straight line transmission of the vibration from the bite - through the line to the fingers of the fisher person. Using this technique, there is really no guide that is touching the line of any consequence, and thus the guide, rod, and reel are not part of the feel equation.

Having said that, I will still only fish with light weight jigs for negative biting fish with any thing less than my very favorite very high modulus graphite, light fishing rod with a very light reel.



Have a great holiday.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2019 06:53PM by roger wilson.

Why focus only on casting? There are other factors involved for the guide train, such as the train on the rod while fighting fish.

Sure a rod made of glass using braided line will be more sensitive than a high mod graphite rod using mono but the ultimate would be a high modulus rod preferably with MSI ratings of 57 and above matched with a low stretch braid or fused superline . Fireline is noted as having the least stretch of the various fused lines and braided lines having a stretch factor of between 2 to 4 % while most braided lines stretch between 4 and 6% but compared to most mono's which have stretch factors averaging above 25 % the former mentioned lines clearly reign supreme in regard to sensitivity, casting distance and sink rate .

Imo a high mod graphite rod with the appropriate # of guides ( As light and small as possible ) with wraps no longer than absolutely necessary and a reel seat attached making as much contact with the blank as possible will always be a far superior instrument when compared to just holding line in your hands/fingers at detecting vibration .

Herb, aren,t todays so called hi mod rods only high mod in the bottom 1/3 of the rod..the tip section barely has the modulus of high guality glass so that they will not explode from a firm hookset when using the super lines..and many bass fishers still don,t use super lines on them..

Varies a great deal between manufacturers , different series of blanks etc... but plenty of rods are still produced using intermediate to higher mod materials in the upper half of the blank, the notion that the highest mod materials are only used in the butt area is not completely accurate . St. Croix likes to advertise that and i actually think it hurts them more than it helps them.

As a whole i would say the last 4 to 6 inches toward the tip will be constructed of material in the 33 to 44 msi range and S glass is used by many manufacturers in the tip area but not all. I would agree that most tip tops will not be the highest modulus stuff . Blanks made these days are not going to blow up when the design is sound even if using the highest performance materials available , that was much more common in the past it's not common at all anymore IF the rod is used responsibly and within it's design parameters .

Responsible anglers fishing with bait use circle hooks exclusively. A slow action rod is usually preferred for bait fishing to reduce the chances of bait pulling off the hook during the cast, and a slow action rod allows the angler to use lighter lines to catch bigger fish. One size - or rod - or guide train - does not excel in all fishing situations or with all casting styles.

Inline circle hooks specifically NOT the ones that are kirbed or offset , those often deep hook fish and aren't much better at protecting the fish than any other hook . Inline circle hooks while not quite as high a hookup ratio as kirbed or offset circle hooks are far far better at preventing deep hooked fish . It will either hook in the jaw or miss altogether . You just got to let the hook do it's thing by eliminating slack in the line BUT never attempt a hard hook set when fishing inline circle hooks, thats how you will repeatedly miss and give up saying circle hooks don't work . I think your below comment is basic common sense Phil .


"One size - or rod - or guide train - does not excel in all fishing situations or with all casting styles"

The only way I imagine one rod can "feel a fish" better than others is old-fashion bait fishing with J-hooks. Using circle hooks the wise angler does NOT want to feel the fish bite but lets the rod-holder "set the hook". Fly fishers, trollers, down-riggers don't "feel the hit" with the rod, and competent artificial lure casters point the rod at the bait during retrieve, minimizing the importance of rod "feel".

"competent artificial lure casters point the rod at the bait during retrieve, minimizing the importance of rod "feel"."

I guess you can call me incompetent then.
As I almost always keep my rod at an angle from lure n line's path so I can feel the bait through the rod.

I would argue Fuji has done a great deal of research and has the high speed photos to back it up and an impressive set of guides to carry out their goal.

There are many other points I'd argue, but what is the point. You guys can fish the way you like and I'll fish the way I like. There is a lot more that I wish to feel besides the bite. Anything from bottom composition and type of structure to how nervous my live bait is. I suppose it comes down to fishing styles.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

I read Phil's post early this morning and i knew immediately to stay away , i can tell when Phil's serious and when he's attempting to stir the pot and that post was clearly an attempt to stir the pot.

Herb: You caught me. Fishing and rod building is too important for some of us to just repeat the meaningless advertising buzz-words we are bombarded with: words like "feeling" "sensitive" "soulful" "smooth" "strong" "responsive" "powerful" "fast" "accurate" "crisp" mean absolutely NOTHING unless accompanied by some real-world information like inches, feet, ounces, pounds, tensile strength, resonant frequency, . . . real information that can be shared, can be verified, and which mean something. Those opposed to verified physical facts are free to ignore them.

Hello Phil.

Have you ever took a 1oz. Got-Ch-Ya (or however it's spelled) plug on a pier jigging for bluefish or Spanish mackerel?

It's not the same if you cant feel the plug and the bite!!

Some types of bait wont hit a jigging hook, but a hook moving up & down slowly, they will hit, but they hit so lightly you have to feel the hit, they will not set the hook themselves.

Just my 2 cents.


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.