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Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: June 26, 2019 09:17PM

I see that when I look at various production rod manufacturers that most of them are no longer carrying rods that use the very small guides.

Have you folks as builders found the same thing with the requests for guides from your clients?

I know that for myself, my clients are telling me the same thing. They say that although the rods with the micro guides work really well - they want their new rods to be built with a more conventional larger sized running guides.

They give various reasons that all make sense for them, and the customer is always right.

I am just wondering of other builders have been noticing the same thing?

Be safe

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: June 26, 2019 09:39PM

Micros never really took of in the PNW. The biggest problem is the facories never really went for the concept whole hog, they just threw some guides on pretty much in the same place as the larger sets.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: June 26, 2019 09:58PM

Most the people I build for want KR concept spinning or casting rods. I rarely use runners larger than size 5.5. Mostly use size 4.5, then size 5 and 4. Size 6 runners look huge to me, and at one time they were the smallest I used. Once I tried the KR concept I never looked back. I really don’t think most rod manufacturers and many custom rod builders really understand the KR concept. I have retrofitted a bunch of older and even new rods for friends with KR guides. I have gotten very good at stripping down and cleaning up rods for refurbishing with this micro guide concept.
Norm

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Dennis Danku (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 12:59AM

Passing knots could be a drawback depending on leader size. I know I have that problem sometimes.

Dennis J. Danku
(Sayreville,NJ)

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Steve Gardner (---.nc.res.rr.com)
Date: June 27, 2019 07:41AM

I've not used a runner guide larger then 3-mm in over ten years now, and not had the first person ask me to put larger then micro guides on a rod since they were introduced.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Tom Wewerka (---.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 09:54AM

One of the biggest problems I see on the real small micro guides is that the foot is too short. I have had more people ask me to replace their micros than those who want them. The smallest I generally use is a 4.5 and occasionally a 4.

There are claims that the smaller guides weigh less, which is true. but when you need to use five more guides to keep the line up off the rod that pretty well shoots that theory in the hole.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 11:07AM

Tom,
When 6 ea. 3 mm guides weighs the same as 1 ea. 6 mm guide, you can afford a few more, also if your installing your guides just like normal, there was a better way found where the amount of extra guides was reduced. It's in the search archives.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 11:17AM

I posted this blog in 2016:

[anglersresource.net]

Yes. I can predict the future. ;)

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: June 27, 2019 12:56PM

Every time a line touches a guide, no matter what size the guide, friction is created. Since the size of the line is consistent, the amount of friction/drag generated by a small guide is pretty much the same as the amount generated by a large guide, although the line will touch a small guide more frequently than it would touch a large guide. I'm not sure how much this affects casting distance, but I suspect it could be as much as a couple of feet for a long spin-cast.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 01:09PM

I was so blown away with size 5.5 runners on my inshore 8 foot rods that i went even smaller on my 11 foot surf rods , a size 5 and i'm so happy i did , passes knots effortlessly and just makes such a huge difference in overall rod responsiveness, feel and efficiency . My strippers of choice are no larger than a size 25 high frame which in double foot only comes in the RV 25 and single foot KL-H 25 .


Fuji's other offerings in the 25 size ring are just not tall enough to use as strippers on my builds .

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 01:21PM

Jim, read your blog when it first came out, loved it! To those who have not tried the KR concept, give it a try. You will find it a real performance enhancer.
Norm

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 01:28PM

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every time a line touches a guide, no matter what
> size the guide, friction is created. Since the
> size of the line is consistent, the amount of
> friction/drag generated by a small guide is pretty
> much the same as the amount generated by a large
> guide, although the line will touch a small guide
> more frequently than it would touch a large guide.
> I'm not sure how much this affects casting
> distance, but I suspect it could be as much as a`
> couple of feet for a long spin-cast.


In my experience smaller guides cast further than larger guides IF the line choice is braid under 30 pounds. Smaller guides do not allow the line to billow inside the guide which causes wasted energy , the energy is not lost since the smaller ring contains/restricts excess line movement and the line is forced forward as a result . Larger guides not only add more weight they allow the line a lot more room to move about inside the ring which is just wasted energy .

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: June 27, 2019 01:52PM

Herb: Wouldn't it be nice if someone rigged identical blanks with the same lines and reels and casters but different with different guide spacing and numbers - and then measured the average distance cast with many small guides versus fewer bigger guides? Maybe not. That would ruin a perfectly good dispute, although there is a sizable population of people for whom personal beliefs about our physical world trumps observed facts/results.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Robert A. Guist (---.triad.rr.com)
Date: June 27, 2019 02:37PM

Hello Phil.

Ask Steve Gardner, (I think!!) he did that back in 2009 or 2010.

If I'm wrong he will let us all know it!!!


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 03:02PM

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herb: Wouldn't it be nice if someone rigged
> identical blanks with the same lines and reels and
> casters but different with different guide spacing
> and numbers - and then measured the average
> distance cast with many small guides versus fewer
> bigger guides? Maybe not. That would ruin a
> perfectly good dispute, although there is a
> sizable population of people for whom personal
> beliefs about our physical world trumps observed
> facts/results.



First of all i think this topic is about how smaller guides make a rod more responsive and lively , and it mostly pertains to runners . Does anyone disagree that micro guides as runners are better if ultimate rod performance is the goal , i don't think so . Casting distance is a whole other topic where reel type , sizes , line type and diameter etc... determine which guides will work best but only going with guide sizes no bigger than absolutely necessary is critical to ultimate rod performance . Most people go with guides larger than necessary imo but if it eases their concerns so be it. Finding the perfect sizes and type of guides takes a lot of trial and error and considerable time spent testing and re testing .

How determined you're in wanting the ultimate performance rod is the question that people need to ask themselves.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: June 27, 2019 03:30PM

Friction is largely a matter of the pressure being applied to the surfaces. Line moving freely through guides on a cast does not result in the same sort of friction that would be present in say, bringing the line back through guides with a fish on the other end. That letter would involve much more friction.

From that standpoint, we're back to how added weight affects a rod's speed (reaction and recovery). A set of smaller guides, albeit greater in number, will reduce rod performance by a lesser amount than a set of larger, heavier guides. It is the difference in weight, not friction, that gives a casting edge to the smaller guide set. Although, we have to remember that depending on your particular use and situation, it is just as possible to use guides that are too small as it is to use guides that are too large.

...........

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 04:51PM

I have long concluded that micros do cast farther than larger guides and I attribute that to the fact that the line is set up to be a very long smooth cylinder about .008 diameter with only its diameter (oversimplified- not quite a true cylinder) creating drag instead of a flailing, looping, length of line going through the air with much of its edges creating drag.

Nope, no hard data, just a theory and a lot of rods that work really well. In my theory the size of the guides is not as important as their ability to tame the line quickly into the smooth cylinder. If you can tame the line with bigger guides, should work.

I have settled on size 5's on spinning and 5 1/2 on cast, KLH on spin, RV on cast, with all KB's to the end on cast, an appropriate mix of KB's land KT's on spin.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 05:55PM

I have read and understood all of the posts about the topics.

But, to bring us all back to the original topic and this is - whether micros will remain a viable option for the general public with general production rods, not out custom rods.

My point in making the post what that a few years ago, a few manufacuters came out with micro guides on a few of their rods. However, today, I am not sure if there are really any production rods still using micro guides.

Do any folks know of general manufacturers who are currently selling any of their popular rods with the micro guide setup?

---
Here is an interesting read on a pair of production rods - one with conventional guides and one with the identical blank, reel seat, and grips except with micro guides.

[fishing-about.com]

---
The comment about the difficulty in threading the line though the guides is the reason that senior clients choose not to have micro guides put on their rods. Senior - implies age. Age implies a loss in vision detail and sharpness.

Good luck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2019 06:03PM by roger wilson.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: June 27, 2019 07:04PM

I understand and agree that a lighter guide train lets the blank perform more efficiently than a heavier guide train does, and that, that may be some of the reason micro guide rods cast better than rods with fewer but heavier larger sized guides. But it's not just because the guides are lighter. Like Michael I believe it's because the line is controlled better.

If it weren't because of better line control, why would the rods I use to pitch with that have micro guides, pitch so much better than the factory rod I have that has conventionally sized running guides? Pitching doesn't load a rod like a full on cast would. It doesn't genterate the kind of bait speed a full on cast would. It's a fairly low energy cast, yet my micro guide rods pitch further with the same or less effort. I am more accurate with them, and because it takes less effort to perform the same task, they are less fatiguing.

As far as factory rods still offering micro guides, I believe Duckett Rods still offers micro guides without special ordering them, but I am not sure. I know you can order micro guides on a Kistler Z Bone, and I am fairly certain you can do the same with certain Megabass rods.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: June 27, 2019 08:09PM

"I use to pitch with that have micro guides, pitch so much better than the factory rod I have that has conventionally sized running guides? Pitching doesn't load a rod like a full on cast would. It doesn't genterate the kind of bait speed a full on cast would. It's a fairly low energy cast, yet my micro guide rods pitch further with the same or less effort"


That is the direct result of the smaller ring containing the line from being able to expand within the ring , thats what makes it feel so much more efficient , the reason it feels so much more effortless in because of the line having very little room to move about inside that ring which preserves energy. I have noticed exactly the same thing between an Avid Inshore factory rod with 10 mm runners and my 5.5 mm runners on my inshore 8 footer.

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