hi Mark..i would have never guessed you are a TH fan, not complex enough..and you seemed to be a complex sort..lol. yes i also love Tenn. handles, mainly for light power spin and fly and like you say the same rod can do both..since you build for others, are their many requests for the TH or maybe it,s making a comeback?

hi Phil..try this..take the same rod with 12 guides and the one ounce weight hanging from the tip..these are special guides..they are slotted on the side so that you can remove the line from the guide,s support..now remove the line from the second guide from the butt..observe the one ounce weight..now remove the line from guide four from the butt..observe the weight..continue to remove the line from every other guide..observe the weight..it will be droping..the rods flex profile will not change much but tthe length of line controlled by the rod has changed a good bit..the rod has become less efficient with fewer guides..you have less sensitivity less hook setting ability,etc..

ben: I can trace the curve of a rod bank with or without guides and measure it accurately. I have no idea how to measure a rod's sensitivity or hook setting ability

Phil..i measure sensitivity and hook setting ability by the size of my smile and the number of fish on my stringer..lol.

Sensitivity and fly fishing are oxymoron's, fly fishing is primarily visual not by feel, whether it be top water or nymphing. Streamer fishing is usually a jolt!

Ben,
Apparently you know me quite well also. While a Tennessee handle may not be very complex in and of itself, you are right in that I made the process more complex by fabricating my own TAPERED carbon fiber/Kevlar slip rings.
If you care to do so, I have posted a picture of a few of my THs under Photos; Grips, Handles and Reel Seats; Mark’s carbon/Kevlar Slip Rings for Tennessee Handles.
The key to a flawless functioning TH is the taper of the rings. Virtually all other available rings are straight and will not hold the reel securely and probably the reason anglers and builders ignore the numbers benefits of a proper TH. Neither myself nor any of my customers have ever had a reel loosen with one of my THs. While the versatility (fly or spin), reel position adjustability (overall rod balance) and minimal weight (<2g) are obvious attributes of a TH, the most overlooked/unknown benefit is the in-hand comfort while the angler’s fingers straddle the stem of a spinning reel. The thin (.025in) slip rings lay flat on the top of the handle while the taper of the rings make a seamless transition from the handle, ramping over the feet and up to the stem of the reel on the bottom of the handle. I have never held anything else more comfortable.
Originally, and agreeing with you, I thought a TH looked cheap and ineffective. But I was given the Conolon rod in the above mentioned photo. While anxious to experience the UL feel of that rod, I was very skeptical of the TH. After three full days of fishing, the reel never came loose and I became a huge fan and supporter, and now a promoter. While a TH may not look very “complex”, I believe that Form-Follows-Function. Besides, my composite slip rings are very intriguing to many.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Phil Erickson,
Thank you for the guide info. BTW, I always utilize my own version of the Forhan locking wrap. Even though I have never had a guide pull-out of any rod I have ever purchased, I believe any reputable builder should employ the simple security.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Herb L.,
I am certainly one of the “newbies” you referred to, hence my questions. At the risk of sounding like I want to be spoon-fed, I do not want to “swallow any bad advice/info”. I understand and appreciate if you would prefer to not air any dirty laundry on the site. You have my personal email. Thanks.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

hi Mark..your composite slip rings look very nice and as thin as the tape that i use on my handles..like you i have been looking for a good way to hold a reel on the TH.. i was always partial to tape and using flocked grips..tape used on cork was ok until you removed it along with the cork filler or tape on a composite grip would self destruct when removed but on a flocked grip it would peel back smoothly with no problem and was reusable many many times..i have tried slip rings but could not fit them to flocked grips...if i wanted to use flocked grips i needed tape.. .a few months ago i started using reinforced gorilla tape..just one wrap around the toe and one around the heel of the reel foot locked it down..it only needed to be adjusted once after the reel foot settled into the flock..it,s also very surprising how well this tape holds a small bantam type casting reel..i haven,t fished it yet though..

Ben,
If I had to rely on tape to hold a reel onto a Tennessee handle, I would have abandoned the idea long ago. Tape can leave a sticky residue, is just plain awkward and funky to use, can pull particles out of the handle while proper slip rings make a TH secure, light and hassle-free and much more user-friendly. I honestly do not think I spend any more time fabricating the composite slip rings than I would spend fitting, gluing and cleaning-up a split reel seat.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Interesting thread ...... my experience with fly fishing is extremely limited. It took place years ago when my dad and I would go after spawning blue gills. As such I really have no clue what makes a good fly rod. I just want to address something Ben wrote in a recent post to this thread.

I completely agree that when it comes to fighting fish, a rod with more well placed guides transfers the blank's power more effectively. It also provides more power when setting the hook. But other than that, a higher number of guides lessens the rod's sensitivity. While I suppose it is logical to assume that the more points of contact the line has, the more information (vibrations) it can transfer to the rod blank, one has to realize that those points of contact are absorbing information. Anything between the line's initial contact with the rod and the angler's hand is absorbing vibrations.

More guides dosen't make a rod more sensitive, it makes it less sensitive.

hi David..what you say makes sense but it seems to be a question of diminishing returns..guides are lighter and smaller and builders are using much less epoxy (no ferrule wraps helps)so that two or three more guides are no problem even on a fly rod..you might gain more control of only a couple inches of line but it makes a difference in how the rod fishes..i,m going to try to get rid of weight somewhere so that i can use a couple more guides..it,s worth it.

I think it is important to remember that most fly cast are 30 - 50'. The majority of caster can't cast past 70' or so. Given that I don't think the drive train has a big effect unless something is completely screwed up. Most 7wt + rods have 2 "stripping" guides (yes I know the second is not technically a striper but is of the same type of guide as the stripper) and most 0wt - 6wt have one. I've tried single foot fly guides and ceramic ringed casting guides and I don't see any real advantage. The ceramic guides are actually a liability for me. I've had a few with popped rings most due to ice build up but also I believe to damage from knots and loops pulled through too aggressively. I've settled on Pac Bay Minima for strippers (titanium framed) and REC Recoils for snake guides.
It is fun to experiment but I personally like the traditional look. The one exception for me is on a 12wt+ rod which I've used all ceramic guides. Only built one.... However you are not really casting those. More of a lob.

It's important to remember that a 40 foot fly cast quickly becomes a 15 foot fly cast in a headwind. BTW: I don't make a lot of casts with a 12 weight line, but those that I make I always double haul. I suspect this is the case with most anglers using 12 wt. rods/lines.

Hi Ben, my disagreement was strictly limited to the number of guides and their effect on the rod's sensitivity. Otherwise I completely agree with what you're saying. I'll gladly add a guide or two more than what I could get away with, because I believe it results in a rod that fishes more to my liking.

David, a better word than sensitivity is responsivness..the rod seems to inform you more quickly about what the fish is doing in the struggle to get un hooked and you in turn are able too react just a little bit sooner..maybe that makes better sense, just by using a couple more guides.

Mark, you have started an interesting thread! It seems to have wandered quite far from you original question which had to do with effectiveness. I should have asked you right up front as to how to measure "effectiveness".

Quinn Canfield Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it is important to remember that most fly
> cast are 30 - 50'. The majority of caster can't
> cast past 70' or so. Given that I don't think the
> drive train has a big effect unless something is
> completely screwed up. Most 7wt + rods have 2
> "stripping" guides (yes I know the second is not
> technically a striper but is of the same type of
> guide as the stripper) and most 0wt - 6wt have
> one. I've tried single foot fly guides and
> ceramic ringed casting guides and I don't see any
> real advantage. The ceramic guides are actually a
> liability for me. I've had a few with popped
> rings most due to ice build up but also I believe
> to damage from knots and loops pulled through too
> aggressively. I've settled on Pac Bay Minima for
> strippers (titanium framed) and REC Recoils for
> snake guides.
> It is fun to experiment but I personally like the
> traditional look. The one exception for me is on
> a 12wt+ rod which I've used all ceramic guides.
> Only built one.... However you are not really
> casting those. More of a lob.

Quin,
The reason you feel as though you are lobing a cast with the #12 rod with all ceramics is that you are overloading the rod. The blank just feels weight - doesn't know whether it's from up-lining it or the components. A CTS Affinity-X #12 blank will build a crisp rod - if built lightly. Of course if you are up-lining the rod AND installing ceramics, it will feel worse.
Herb

Mark, i did a quick study to see at what temperature the Gorilla tape releases it,ss glue to a flocked surface..it wasn,t until i got upto 130F that some glue finally appeared stuck to the flock..it wasn,t much but would have gotten worse from grip pressure..i didn,t see any glue at lower temps..things should be ok as long as i don,t fish in Hades..lol..that,s probably all warm water fishing..lol..another reason for using tape is that i want to use slightly tapered grips and to be able to move the reel up or down the grip..tape really is a must..

Phil Erickson,
I have been guilty of wander-off on my original question also. I should have been more explicit than “most effective” which is generic and subjective. Since I have extremely little experience with fly fishing and building fly rods as well, I was asking which stripper and running guides pass fly line the best (= most distance and most tolerant of novice [poor] casting styles). If there truly is no difference between traditional snakes and KTs or Minimas, then I will certainly stick with tradition.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.