I had an old ring-and-keeper cane fly rod. Double-foot snake guides are a demonstrably HUGE improvement over these old guides. I have yet to see a credible demonstration of a running guide which performs better than a double-foot snake guide, but if such a guide exists I will abandon snake guides in a flash.

Okay Phil, I’ll bite. I know both you and Herb have a ton of experience in Florida waters. Most of our fish aren’t huge but they are fast and can test tackle and drags if one uses lighter line classes.

I’m thinking a ceramic ring guide would have less friction and would be a benefit on speedsters like bonefish. But maybe not?

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russell,
Go take a charter and go out and catch a few multi hundred lb bill fish and you will be hooked as the saying goes.

Be safe

Russ: Maybe so, but most experienced tarpon anglers I have seen use rods with snake guides, and a 120 pound tarpon puts considerably more stress on guides and lines than an eight pound bonefish. I refer to fly rods only. Spin-casters and spinning lines may well benefit from ceramic-ring guides.

As a builder of fly rods exclusively, I'll offer my two cents on Mark's question

His reference to 3 to 5 weight, means somewhat the lighter range of rods, thus in my opinion, guide train weight becomes an issue.

Thus my typical build for those weights is double foot stripping guides followed by single foot light wire guides and fly tip top.

A high framed stripping guide is no advantage as one is either holding the line with the off hand or pinning it to the grip when casting, which usually depends the distance being sought.

With this weight rods, fish weight and strength are not usually large so there is little if any advantage to the strength of double foot or the need for guides with inserts.

The double foot/single foot debate is often characterized by assumptions and personal appearance considerations, with no quantifiable data. "You pays your money and you take your choice!"

Ed Kramer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lance, I usually place my stripper guide within
> easy reach of my free hand. I assume you then
> place the running guides based on the normal
> stress test. Correct?

Ed,
No it is not based on the stress test but rather the best placement to get the most distance and control out of the line. I am using more guides in the correct places than snakes so the distribution of the load is going to be more even over the length of the rod. It will handle any stress better than conventional guide placement. I have found that if you get the stripper a little closer (not to close or weird looking) that the feel of the line and the control improve. You have to play around with it to find that spot but when you do it is noticeable.

A ten-pound trout or bass will draw "oohs" and "aahs" nearly everywhere, but a ten pound redfish or a 30 pound tarpon won't. A 30-foot fly cast in still air on a river will usually be plenty good enough for success, but that same cast in an estuary with a 20 mph wind will doom you to failure. The fishing environment dictates which tackle is necessary, including which blanks, which rod components, and which specifications. A competent rod builder will consider the fishing environment and the caster's abilities before selecting components and building a rod for someone - or giving rod building advice.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A ten-pound trout or bass will draw "oohs" and
> "aahs" nearly everywhere, but a ten pound redfish
> or a 30 pound tarpon won't. A 30-foot fly cast in
> still air on a river will usually be plenty good
> enough for success, but that same cast in an
> estuary with a 20 mph wind will doom you to
> failure. The fishing environment dictates which
> tackle is necessary, including which blanks, which
> rod components, and which specifications. A
> competent rod builder will consider the fishing
> environment and the caster's abilities before
> selecting components and building a rod for
> someone - or giving rod building advice.

Phil, I hear ya about red fish and Tarpon but also you are more spread out away from people in saltwater. I believe that is why I like it so much. Your also correct about the environment it will almost always dictate the equipment. I was in far southern Patagonia this last January (summer in the southern hemisphere) with 3 days to fish. The wind before my fishing days was nice and calm. The 1st fishing morning it started to pick up to around 30 knts when I left, by the time I got to the river it was around 45-50 knts. I had two 5wt rods, one traditional with snake guides and the other with ceramics. I found if I wanted to make a short accurate cast the snake guide rod worked best especially where the river was narrower and for a longer blind cast in wider parts of the river the rod with the ceramic guides did a better job. Now of course in wind like that a fly cast is waiting for a lull after a gust with a lot of times just casting straight up in the air and letting the wind do the rest. All my 3 days I had were like this but with different terrain some places more protected than others. The environment and conditions dictates the equipment and if you have more choices at the time the better off you are.

Russ,
The fly line never travels from the reel to the stripper on the way out. It either moves from a stripping basket (line tray) - or the ground - or a boat deck.
On the way back in - if you are lucky enough to have a fish put you on the reel - the line goes from the stripper to the pinky finger of your rod hand to level wind the line onto the reel.
Herb

Seth Johnson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lance Schreckenbach Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ed Kramer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Lance, What number of single foot runners
> have
> > > you found to be the optimum number for a 9
> foot
> > > rod?
> >
> > I have found that 12 guides total work (not
> > including tip top) for 9' rods. Two strippers
> or
> > one stripper then all running guides Most of
> the
> > ceramic tip tops are also lighter than the
> snake
> > style fly tip tops but the double foot snake
> > guides are lighter than the single foot ceramic
> > but you have one wrap vs two. From other guys I
> > have spoken to that were going in the same
> > direction as me, they say that the more guides
> the
> > better, but I have settled on 12 for a 9'.
> >
> >
> > Mark you can always tape the guides on to find
> out
> > what works best for you.
>
> Sorry to hijack, but what size L guides would you
> use on a 5 weight?

On my 5wts I have been using 6mm rings. 8wts combo of 7mm and 6mm closer to the tip. 3wts all 5mm runner guides.

I call "fiction" on the claim that more guides distribute force more evenly along a rod blank. Last week I watched a 250-foot-high crane lift several tons hundreds of feet into the air and it had only a tip-top, no guides to "distribute the force". The benefit of guides is to "tame" the line as it leaves the rod - reduce line wrap and slap around the blank. I don't think there would be any difference in the arc of a rod under load whether the line was tied to the tip-top or it ran through twelve guides to the reel.

If the crane boom was made to bend like a fishing rod you might think some thing else , Phil, don't take this wrong , I am just pointing out that the BOOM don't bend,
made to take the weight of the lift, as I see it

William Sidney
AK

Lance,
You were fly casting with 5 weights in winds of 52 - 57 mph????
You're a better man than I. Errrrrrr- maybe better than any other man on earth.
Herb

and if there were no 12 guides and the line could slide through the tip-top it would form a continuous arc called a circle in the rod under very little load..a lot less load than with 12 guides and probably could not generate enough force to set a hook in a fish..

A fish pole and a ten-ton crane are both class three levers which obey the same laws of physics. Adding guides or pulleys to the middle of a fish pole or a crane will not make the lever arm stronger or weaker - or much change the arc of deflection of the lever .

sure, you can make a fishing rod as stiff as a crane but it,s no fun fishing with an eight foot two by four..a flexing rod works much better..then when it flexes you need to transfer the load from the weaker tip to the stronger butt..guides make this transfer possible..without guides the load stays in the tip which may break..the more guides on a rod the quicker and smoother the load transfer..better hook sets too..

What Ben said.
Guides transfer the load to the stripper - otherwise one could not use a "side-swipe" hook-set using the power of the butt section.
Herb
P.S. - this thread is fraught with bad info/advice. Hope a newbie doesn't swallow all this stuff offered-up by non-fly fishermen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2019 03:05PM by Herb Ladenheim.

I am overwhelming pleased with all the replies from so many of you who took the time to attempt to assist my original guide type question for fly rods. Additional thanks for not taking the liberty to poke fun at my novice fly casting abilities (or lack thereof).
While all replies are cherished and understood, there were a few that I took special notice of. Norman apparently knows me best as I have become a huge supporter of the Tennessee handle and have employed its numerous benefits to quite a few rods now. Not only does a TH allow use of either a spinning or fly reel, but either can be positioned anywhere within the handle length; utilizing the tapered carbon/Kevlar sliding rings I make, it is possibly the lightest seat/handle combination out there (the rings weigh less than 2g); the taper of the rings make the feel-in-hand as though the reel stem and feet are molded into the handle (spinning); and due to the taper of the rings the reel will never loosen. Sorry to get off-track, but after realizing the win-win benefits of a taper-ringed TH, all of my trout rods will be so equipped from now on, and the majority of my customers agree.
Back to fly rod guides. It seems the general consensus prefer snake guides, and rightfully so as they have been the standard for many years. Phil Erickson made comment to “single foot light wire guides” and hopefully he will enlighten me as to which he was referring. As a builder of exclusively fly rods, his input is held in high regard. His other contributions are well received as well.
Tim Kelly may have offered the simplest, most direct opinion, ”single foot guides and spinning guides would just make a great rod look like a bass or spinning rod”. While the point is well taken and with all due respect, I can build some great looking (and performing) casting and spinning rods which work pretty dang well to-boot.
Lance may have summed-up my questions with higher-frame stripper guides in that “casting with your stripping hand too far away from the blank is bad casting technique…”. I was unaware of that and probably guilty of such as well. His tear drop European style snake guide observations are well noted.
Spencer and Donald mentioned the rod tube storage issue. While a valid point and well received, I have already adopted to 2in tall KL-Hs and the sock/storage issue with my spinning rods. The issue here is the most effective fly guides. Donald’s other input is well received as well.
The input from all the others is well-received, appreciated and applied, certainly not ignored, in my quest to build a fly-specific rod. Thank you!
While Phil Ewanicki and I may be jousting for the title of “Habitual-Over-Thinker” of this site, his suggestion of using two identical fly blanks to build one conventionally with snakes and the other with ringed guides for comparison may provide the best answer. While I had already considered such, it is easy for him to suggest as the time and cash are dependent on me, let alone employing “fly casters of varying abilities” to test lol. Additionally, I am not confident a fumbling fly fisherman such as I can distinguish the difference between the two. Heck, if the fly casts out 3ft past the rod tip and within 90* of where intended, I’m feel’n GOOD!!!
I totally agree with, appreciate and respect the use of traditional strippers and snake guides for fly rods. That’s what fly rods have looked liked for over 50 years. However, the possibility may exist other guides may provide a performance enhancement barring tradition and accepted/ expected looks. I am certain I am not the first to consider a different approach to fly guide trains and most likely will not be the last. While I am very comfortable with my abilities to produce effective if not handsome spinning and casting rods, I accept and realize fly fishing is a different breed with different parameters. Hence my request for knowledge from Those-in-the-Know.
Special thanks to ALL!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark, Batson supplies both light and standard wire single foot fly guides. As fly rod guides rarely take beating, I find the light wire good for most light weight (2-5wt) rods. Using the Forhan locking wrap further protects them.

Besides wire guides (single or double foot) Minima's make excellent fly rod guides, some of my customers prefer them.

Thread a line from a reel through the whole guide train, tie a 1 oz. weight to the end of the line, tighten the drag, and trace the curve of the rod under strain on a piece of paper. Now cut the line two feet from the weight and tie the cut end to the tip top - suspending the weight again. Compare the curve of the rod now to the traced curve. Can you believe your eyes?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2019 09:33AM by Phil Ewanicki.