I am hoping to receive guidance in selecting guides for a 3-5 wt fly rod. The majority of my builds are UL spinning trout rods and light-to-medium salt casting rods along with the occasional stand-up tuna rod. While I have built a number of fly trout rods, they are admittedly in the minority. Those who know me from this site are aware of my respect for the traditional and passion for the vintage Conolon blanks yet attempting to meld those traditional, vintage aspects with modern components and concepts.
Is it simply due to tradition that the majority of fly rods employ a relatively low-frame stripper and reduction train followed by double-foot snake guides? I would think a higher-frame stripper such as a KL-H would reduce the line angle from the angler’s hand promoting better casting distance. Snake guides may initially seem to be very light as compared to, say, a size 6 KB/KT but with two feet to wrap, the additional thread and epoxy might counter that. The weight of the additional wrap and the additional stiffness of the wire must detract from retaining the action of the blank in its naked state. I would think the open side of snake guides toward the blank could allow the wet line to rub against the blank and possible further reduce casting distance while a ring guide such as a KT would elevate the line from the blank.
These are my novice observations and am requesting enlightenment from you veterans, especially those concentrating on fly rods. I am here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I do not know the answer to this question but I know how to get the answer to it. Build two identical rods except for the guide trains: make one with traditional snake guides and one with KL-H, KB, and KT guides. Then have a group of fly casters of various abilities and using the same line cast both rods and observe the results. Empirical evidence is always more reliable than theoretical conclusions - except in religious matters. A major advantage of two-foot snake guides is their geometry allows a larger "wind knot" to pass through them than a ring guide of the same size.

Another thought, which is easier to get a rod sock and tube for, and then pack around? Which would transport best through the pucker brush and hang less on things?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2019 10:39AM by Spencer Phipps.

Mark,
I believe you are correct about the open end of a snake guide especially the European style tear drop shape. The RECs are more round, and in my opinion make a better snake guide because they do not "pinch" the line like the tear drop. Both can let the line touch the blank but if you have the proper amount of guides keeping the line straight then this is less likely. I to had given the thought to higher frame guides but it occurred to me that casting with your stripping hand too far away from the blank is bad casting technique and to double haul is to sometimes use the stripper guide to feel the resistance (if this make sense). I see no reason why that a single foot guide would not work as a stripper and really like Fuji L frame ceramic guides for runners. I have made a couple of 9' 3wt rods with a traditional double foot stripper guide and all ceramic L frame runners and they will cast an easy 70' without hardly trying. The trick is, and I have said this a few times already, you need more single foot ceramic guides than double foot snake guides in order to get better performance. The same amount of ceramic guides as you would use double foot snakes will not work as well. Another trick is to get the stripper a little closer to the reel. You may need to go with a larger ring to do this. Since Fuji does not make the L frames anymore I have been looking at Alps and others because I like the way they look. The Fuji KT guides will work but I just haven't got used to the look on a fly rod.
Tight Lines,
Lance

Spencer, i never heard of pucker brush..must be a good story behind a name like that..it sounds like a good name for a bass fly..call it the pucker bug, the bass can,t keep their lips off it..lol..sorry Mark, back to topic..i just don,t care for snake guides because of the high friction under load..

Lance, What number of single foot runners have you found to be the optimum number for a 9 foot rod?

I appreciate those of you, Phil, Spencer, Lance, even you Ben lol, and Ed, taking the time to assist me. While there are times when holding to tradition is proper and prudent, in this case I am looking for the best performance from the improper input of a floppy fly angler. I have only fly fished a few times and am certain it would be hysterically entertaining (or possibly painful) for all of you to witness.
Hopefully others reply as well.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark

I've tried casting 5 and 7 weights using higher frame spinning guides as stripper for the fly rods. Frankly I could detect no advantage in terms of casting effort. Plus, as mentioned above, the higher frame spinning guides would make rod tube storage and issue. Finally, I've got to believe that if higher frame stripping guides truly offerred and advantage the major fly rod manufactures would be all over it.

This might get me edited as they are not a sponsor, but take a look at Snake Brand's Universal light wire snake guides with eCoating. The snakes are not tear drop shaped, light wire is the way to go for light to mid weight fly rods, and the Universal snake guide feet wrap like a dream reqiring little to no prerparation.

Ed Kramer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lance, What number of single foot runners have
> you found to be the optimum number for a 9 foot
> rod?

I have found that 12 guides total work (not including tip top) for 9' rods. Two strippers or one stripper then all running guides Most of the ceramic tip tops are also lighter than the snake style fly tip tops but the double foot snake guides are lighter than the single foot ceramic but you have one wrap vs two. From other guys I have spoken to that were going in the same direction as me, they say that the more guides the better, but I have settled on 12 for a 9'.


Mark you can always tape the guides on to find out what works best for you.

Lance Schreckenbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ed Kramer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lance, What number of single foot runners have
> > you found to be the optimum number for a 9 foot
> > rod?
>
> I have found that 12 guides total work (not
> including tip top) for 9' rods. Two strippers or
> one stripper then all running guides Most of the
> ceramic tip tops are also lighter than the snake
> style fly tip tops but the double foot snake
> guides are lighter than the single foot ceramic
> but you have one wrap vs two. From other guys I
> have spoken to that were going in the same
> direction as me, they say that the more guides the
> better, but I have settled on 12 for a 9'.
>
>
> Mark you can always tape the guides on to find out
> what works best for you.

Sorry to hijack, but what size L guides would you use on a 5 weight?

Lance, I usually place my stripper guide within easy reach of my free hand. I assume you then place the running guides based on the normal stress test. Correct?

I think the major advantage of using a high frame stripper guide on a fly rod is if you wanted it to serve a dual purpose for both spinning and fly fishing. From my limited experience a spinning rod works better as a fly rod then a fly rod works as a spinning rod. A Tennessee handle makes the switch possible. If you just want a fly rod build it as a fly rod, using traditional snake or single foot wire or single foot ceramics for running guides. I like a fly rod that looks like a fly rod. Just my thoughts.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2019 03:33PM by Norman Miller.

I don't see how more guides would improve accuracy so I assume the goal here is to improve casting distance. I would turn to distance fly casting champions to see what type of guides they use and follow their example. If the fly-rod's user can't or doesn't want to cast more than, say, 50 measured feet the choice of guides on his fly rod isn't very important except for looks.

Mark,
I have a bit of a problem to understand the meaning of your original posting:

i.e. "Most effective fly guides" ??

I suppose that the simple answer is that the use of the double snake foot guides are the most effective.

These guides do an excellent job to guide and control the line during a daily day of fishing. The size and configuration of a double snake foot guide lends itself for the use of a wider range of lines, knots and even objects that might be picked up on a line during these sorts of water and weather conditions like tree fluff on the water, or moss on the water - all of which may be gathered up on the line and tend to jam up the guide system on a rod.

I suspect that the changes you have pointed out by the use of a double foot - as opposed to a single foot when it comes to added weight, changing the parameters of the blank itself are very much undecetable by the vast majority of a rod with this guide configuration as compared to an identical rod that has been built with single foot guides.

But, it is always wise to question items that may lead to a better solution to a given problem.

As always, be safe

I use traditional guides on all my fly rods, simply don't see the benefit in doing otherwise? Single foot guides and spinning guides would just make a great rod look like a bass or spinning rod.

I’m surprised that reel size/type never factors in. I just picked a large arbor 7-9 weight reel. The thing is huge, easily 4.5 outside diameter. Whiy use same stripping for that reel as one would for a small or mid arbor reel?

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russ,
How could reel diameter possibly affect use of a fly rod?
Herb

Snake guides are the original no tangle guide design. I think oversized stripping guides aren’t needed but can see the benefit with fish that take off fast to help reduce a tangle. I have been shocked to cast some old rods with tiny metal strippers on how well they will still shoot plenty of line.

like Norm said, the first person to do this was building so that he could use the rod for fly or spin fishing if called for..

Herb, it would seem to me that a big large arbor reel would create a bowstring effect between it and the stripper guide. This assumes one isn’t using a high frame spinning guide.

But I know very little about fly rods and even less about casting them. My limited experience was catching bluegill in Tennessee. I’m looking forward to trying some saltwater fly fishing though. Strangely I am less interested in tarpon and bonefish. Would love to catch a dolphin and even jack crevelle and Bonita sound like fun.

Right now I have to heal so I have some time to learn.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.