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Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: David Janes (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: May 14, 2019 08:20PM

Very new to rod building and all my fishing is saltwater. I am in the process of building a heavy spinning rod for tarpon and then want to build a set of offshore spinners for casting at sails, mahi, and such. Would the kr concept work on rods with 6500 or larger spinners with 20 lb test mono and the larger knots that we use, or should I follow the new guide concept? The rods will all be 7’ and casting large live baits.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 14, 2019 08:52PM

"Would the kr concept work on rods with 6500 or larger spinners with 20 lb test mono and the larger knots that we use"



The KR concept works on my eleven foot surf rods with a 10000 size spinner with a 76 mm spool diameter which is quite a bit larger than a Penn 6500 BUT thats because i always use braid UNDER 20 pounds . With mono even if rated at 20 pounds that has to pass larger knots i would build it NGC not KR . I assume all your saltwater fishing is from a moving vessel which will make casting distance a low priority and needing a rod to be as lightweight as possible a lesser a factor as well .

Sounds like you just want something that works well with a Penn 6500 which is a heavy duty AND heavy in weight spinner for sure . Many just go with Fuji KW's in a 30 -20-12- 8-8-8-8 or something along those lines which will work perfectly with what you want to do especially with a 6500 spinner , large knots and 20 + pound mono .

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: David Janes (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: May 15, 2019 02:09PM

Thanks for the reply,
I kind of figured NGC would be the way to go, but as you said the big surf rods are goin KR so was not so sure. And yes your right that 90% of the fishing will be from a moving boat and casting distance is not as important. And even at drift or anchor you don’t see the fish until they are relatively close.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 15, 2019 02:37PM

Actually most builders of surf rods to this day are still choosing the regular K guides and the biggest reason for this imo is the substantial price jump to double foot RV's . They're exceptionally pricey and only come in titanium frames with either SIC or Torzite rings , when the largest RV considered still part of the KR concept is a size 25 ring which costs either $69.99 for the titanium SIC or $97.99 for the titanium Torzite you can see why many shy away and choose the KW 30 which is far far cheaper.


The RV 25 has a height of 55.9 mm , the KW 30 has a height of 61.2 mm and the KW 30 L's height is 50.4 mm , now when you look at the KW 25 it's height is listed at 42.4 mm which sits too low for most full size surf rods using large spinning reels but the KW 30 and KW 30 L have heights that fit very well to use as the first reduction guide on rods like this . If Fuji had a high frame KW 25 with a height around 55-60 mm that would be an ideal substitute for the far more expensive RV 25 but they don't so most choose the KW 30 or KW 30 L and they work exceptionally well on all types of rods equipped with large spinners throwing heavy braid or mono .

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 15, 2019 03:32PM

Don't get to caught up the the KR concept because it's geared toward anglers who fish with braid 30 pounds and under and i believe braid in the 20 pound and under range is even more advisable if you want to see a KR builds true potential. It's NOT the choice for offshore angling with heavier mono where numerous joins will be involved and you need guide ring sizes large enough to allow line to flow unimpeded .


For what you want to do and the line you specified i think a KW 30 is ideal , even if there was a KW 25 offered at the proper height i would still opt for the 30 with the 6500 which doesn't have a huge spool diameter but it's not on the smaller side either . You can build a superb rod that offers the advantages of a KR build meaning ( A rapid choking of the line to get it running smoothly & straight earlier in the process ) by choosing guides that have a larger impact on line direction meaning don't choose a guide train like a 40,30,25,16,8 etc...because there is very little change in the line between each guide , what you want is something along the lines of 30,20,12 ,8 which forces the line down far quicker and that is essentially the concept of the KR system .

Another reason why for your application a NGC build is a better choice than a KR build is because with a KR build the choke and running guides are not only the same size but are far smaller than what you typically see on a NGC build , going with size 5 - 5.5 or size 6 runners which is extremely common on KR builds for your application is a poor choice as size 8 is needed for the line type and knot's you intend to use .

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 16, 2019 12:25PM

David, there are a few things that I found confusing regarding the various "guide systems" and the type of rods it seems we both use.

First, the K series guides made by Fuji were engineered to solve problems when using braided fishing line, problems like the line wrapping around the guide frames when casting and things like that. It isn't to say the guides won't work with mono because they certainly will. However, if you have no intention of using braid, then maybe you see no good reason to spend more for a guide engineered for braid.

Second, if you go and read the article on NGC in the library here and try to apply it to your rods you will run into "problems". The article will tell you to put the choker guide at 27 times the reel spool diameter and use a stripper guide at least 1/2 the spool diameter. Then it will go on to say you need one guide per foot of rod length plus one extra. Also that you will never need more than four reduction guides no matter how heavy the rod.

Okay, good enough, so lets look at what we have. Seven foot rod so 8 guides plus the tiptop. We have to decide on what the smallest guide is that will pass your knots, and for now, we will call that a size 8. You measure the reel spool and find it to be 65 mm. Great, size 8 choker guide located 65 times 27 from the spool lip. Stripper guide will be 1/2 of 65 so you round up to a 40 mm guide. Excellent and we are ready to go we think.

You decided on a 12" long rear grip and then your reel seat and then your fore-grip. Without bothering to measure anything we will say reel spool lip is 18" from butt end of rod or 66" from tip of rod. Okay, 65 mm times 27 = 1755 mm. Divide that by 25.4 and you have 69.1". Okay, wait a second, that is past the end of the rod, what did I do wrong? Article says I never need more than four reduction guides, and that I need eight guides, but my choker guide is past the end of my rod!!!!! Okay, time for a beer.

Well my friend, you going to find out the hard way......that given a big enough reel on a short enough rod.....that you are basically going to end up back at the old school "cone of flight" guide system that tends to use one of each size guide.

There are plenty of other things I might mention but I'll let you digest the above and ask your own questions.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 16, 2019 02:24PM

LOL, can't argue with what Russell said IF you follow that concept . When someone asks for suggestions you go with what they offer , rarely do they offer a well chosen rod and reel combination , it's usually a Penn Spinfisher 9500 with a 6 foot medium light spinning rod and "NO" they do not want to change anything .

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: David Janes (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: May 16, 2019 06:55PM

I read that article the other night and did the calculations and was left very perplexed for that very reason. I was thinking I was doing it wrong or not understanding something. I wish I could get away with a smaller reel but need the line capacity for what I'm fishing for. The reels I'm looking to use are actually Diawa Saltigas. Wish I could get away with the 5000.

Thanks for your guidance guys.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: David Janes (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: May 16, 2019 07:25PM

Thats suppose to be Saltis not Saltiga. That's a little rich for my blood.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 16, 2019 07:31PM

The Daiwa Saltist 6500 , that reel weighs in at a whopping 29 + ounces , you never considered braid for your applications , are you just used to using mono ?

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: David Janes (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: May 16, 2019 07:42PM

I found mono is more forgiving on jumping fish, and long runs. Also at times the boat cant give chase either to double hook ups or at anchor , and line capacity is very important. That being said I have been trying to convince myself that a smaller reel like the 5000 with 20# braid is the way to go. Or maybe add a 100 yard 20# mono top shot on the braid. And yes that reel is ridiculously big/heavy.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 16, 2019 10:20PM

You don't need to go as light as 20 pound braid if going for the fish you're talking about , it's not a factor of the strength of the line since even 20 pound braid has a much higher actual breaking strength than 20 pound mono does this is about you being able to use a much more manageable reel that will give you hundred's of yards of braid in the 40 to 50 pound range and using leaders that will provide the stretch needed to land these powerful fish.

Many top spinners have drag ranges that will whip even big fish in a hurry i'm talking spinners with drag ranges exceeding 30 pounds and some offering drag ranges in excess of 40 pounds and they're affordable i'm not talking about a super expensive Stella here. You can also do a 50/50 mix of heavy braid on half of the spool and go with 200 + yards of mono on top .

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 16, 2019 11:30PM

David, only you know how many yards of line your reel needs to hold. It is all about where you fish and what you hope to catch. Using a 100 yard top shot is worth considering.

Do you have a compelling reason to pick the Saltist? Very little difference between it and the new (2016) black gold (BG) model (best bang for the buck by a mile). The mag-sealed feature forces you to have to return the reel to a factory service center as they won't sell consumers the oil.

I'd suggest the Spheros SW or Saragosa. The Quantum Cabo PTSE in the larger sizes is also a solid choice. I like a baitrunner type reel for live bait so I'd add the Thunnus CI4 too. Otherwise get the 2016 BG.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 17, 2019 01:35PM

Since it doesn't sound like you plan on replacing your Saltist i won't bother recommending any other spinners but there are many IF you decide to pick something else , ONLY if you change your line choice will another reel be worthwhile as the newer BG offers nothing over your 6500 Saltist , it carry's the exact same amount of 20 pound test mono as your Saltist in the 6500 size and is within a half ounce in overall weight . Reels in the 5000 size range carry an average of 90 yards less of 20 pound mono than the 6500 size reels but weigh in at a much more manageable 22 ounce range.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: David Janes (---.sub-174-228-139.myvzw.com)
Date: May 17, 2019 02:19PM

So I’ve decided to switch to a 5000. I did some research and thinking and figure it is actually the better way to go. I might scale my mono down a little or do a braid mono split. So now back to the drawing board on guides.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 17, 2019 02:24PM

You got a Saltist 5000 ? That holds 280 yards of 20 pound test mono and weighs in around 22 ounces so a wise choice .

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: David Janes (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: May 17, 2019 02:35PM

And it feels right. That 6500 on a spinner was so awkward. It never felt right. And if I were to get spooled that’s better then not hooking up at all.
Thanks for all your help and input you two.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 17, 2019 02:46PM

Seriously consider spooling up with 40 pound braid and then mono of your choice on top , i switched to using the FG knot for most connections , it's exceptionally strong and incredibly thin.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 17, 2019 05:24PM

So David, just because I am the curious type, have you bought the reel yet? If you have, did you buy the Saltist?

Don’t be surprised if you still find that choker guide is past the end of the rod!

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Kr or new concept heavy spinning rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 17, 2019 05:45PM

Here's what Tom says about a choke point landing past the tip of the rod :


"Where the tip lies is of zero importance. What is important is the distance from the reel to the choke guide. Anything beyond that is just extra length covered with whatever number of running guides are required. Try to get the idea out of your head that there must be a specific length or distance beyond the choke guide to the tiptop. That portion of the rod doesn't matter"

"If you use the 27X, just put the choke guide where the factor locates it. It makes no difference if the tiptop is 2 inches or 20 inches beyond that point. Everything that needs to be done will be done between the reel and choke guide. That's the whole point of using that factor"

.................

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