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Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Mark D Schulte (---.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 05:16AM

I have a good friend who snapped a rod while fishing and he would like me to try to repair it. I usually shy away from those repairs because the time and cost of a repair you can get a new blank and start over. He is adamant that I try. It is a Kistler med heavy fast action bass blank broke in top area where the action is.. Would a repair hold up to the hard hook sets and I'm sure the action will change.If I do repair, what is the best type epoxies for the sleeve in the repair? Thanks as always

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 05:26AM

Mark,
Whenever I do a repair of this sort, I do both an internal plug using a fiberglass rod blank section of the appropriate size. Then, I also do an oversleeve of the break, also using a section of fiberglass blank.

The reason to use the fiberglass is that fiberglass is more flexible and does not stiffen the blank as much as a graphite plug and sleeve of a similar size would do.

I use both the inner and outer plug and sleeve due to the power of the rod and the wish to avoid a repair failure, as might occur if only an internal plug, or only an external sleeve is used for the repair.

Then, I do a thread wrap on the end 1/2 inch of the repair over sleeve to keep the sleeve from splitting and finally a coat of thread epoxy and you are good to go.

I like to extend the plug and the oversleeve by at least 3/4 inch on each end of the break, making sure that you use a magnifying glass to insure that you know the true extent of the break.

I also like to repair the break as it has occurred, I normally never trim the ends of the break, because by fitting the broken pieces of break together, one greatly increases the gluing area for the repair.

I first prepare the internal plug, then the over sleeve and have everything cleaned up and ready to glue. Then, I mix up a batch of 5 minute epoxy and quickly assemble the internal pieces, the blank itself and the outer sleeve, before the glue as began to set.

This lets one wrap the ends of the repair 30 minutes later. Normally a repair like this can be done in under an hour as long as there are pieces of blank around that can be used for the repair.

If you use fiberglass for both the internal plug as well as the outer sleeve, you will only have minimal stiffening of the action at the site of the break.

Good luck

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Mark D Schulte (---.mobile.att.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 07:51AM

Thanks Roger.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 08:36AM

Look at the library article on rod repair. I've used that method, without an internal spigot, (unless the blank is really shattered, then I've used the internal spigot + external sleeve) with success. Action is not changed perceptively. I've even checked action and power (CCSs) on a shattered fly rod repair and found no difference from when the blank was new.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: May 11, 2019 02:38PM

Mark,
Without disputing Michael’s claim, I am pleasantly surprised he found no difference between the CCS numbers of the original fly blank and after the break was repaired.
Roger’s repair method is a very sound procedure and utilizing both an external sleeve and internal spigot will produce a very strong repair. The only thing I would add is to make the external sleeve .50in, or more, longer than the spigot to help distribute stresses to the rod at the ends of the sleeve and spigot over a larger area when the rod is flexed. It may be overkill but it certainly cannot hurt.
Good luck and let us know how the repair turns out.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 11, 2019 03:13PM

It's not hard to make a "strong" repair, but the primary concern in any such repair is that the repaired area be similar in flex and power characteristics to the blank areas on either side. "Strong" repairs often lead to failure due to stress concentrations at the end of a too strong (rigid) repair splint. The article spells this out and done per the article, you won't notice much difference in the repaired rod other than a minor weight increase.

...................

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: May 11, 2019 07:08PM

I would certainly not dispute and even agree with and respect Tom’s veteran stress concerns and observation. That is precisely why I suggested making the external sleeve longer than the spigot. Rare if ever would be the case of a rod, or any composite structure, breaking cleanly across the axis without microscopic, hair-line fractures occurring longitudinally, especially within the unidirectional fibers which are predominate in blank construction. Who precisely knows how far those fractures actually extend? Securing both the external and internal surfaces of the tubular blank will greatly reduce the propagation of any existing fractures better than only securing one side. No one will ever see a composite race car tub repaired on only one surface! Granted, race car tubs are designed to be stiff whereas blanks are designed to flex, but the same repair principles exist. I cannot imagine the addition of a .50in long spigot adversely affecting the flex properties of a repaired rod enough to overcome the piece-of-mind knowing the repair is “strong” and will not fail. No one can expect a repaired broken rod to perform exactly as it did prior to being broken = you can’t get chicken soup from chicken poop!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 11, 2019 08:17PM

You don't need to do both an internal and external repair, particularly not in the top half of the rod where it is imperative that the repair area flex in the same manner as the surrounding blank does.

The reason that an external sleeve of glass is recommended for repairing a carbon rod is due to the greater stiffness of carbon and the relation of diameter to stiffness. An oversleeve of glass (larger diameter) upon the carbon blank (smaller diameter) will more closely match the stiffness of the two "tubes" equally. Don't muss it up with something inside as well - it's just not needed.



.............

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: May 11, 2019 08:32PM

Tom,
Your veteran rod building/repair experience may exceed that of my structural composite knowledge, let alone rod building/repair experience. All your points are well received and acknowledged.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 09:06PM

I have repaired a lot of rods that have been broken in the tip section by adding a new tip. However, this requires having a a bunch of broken rods available. I remove the first guide or two past the break, and then start looking for a tip section from another broken rod that will slide on over the break. If I find one that fits, I push the tip against the ceiling and look for I nice smooth bend between the new tip and the broken rod. Don’t want a flat spot or a funny looking bend. You will want a couple of inches overlap between the new tip and the broken rod when epoxied in place. When you think about it, it like the best compromise between an internal plug and an over sleeve. What I try to do when I find a suitable tip is adjust where I trim the sections so I can put the cut where a guide will be placed. This will hide the repair and many times it’s difficult to find where the repair was made. In most cases, the owner can’t tell where the repair was made and most think the rod is better after the repair then it was before being broken. Most of the time the repaired rod will be a little longer. I broke my favorite crappie jig rod a number of years ago and repaired as I mentioned, and I still use it without an issue, and you can’t tell where the repair was made. If you can’t find a suitable tip, then repair as suggested above. The over sleeve looks a little weird but it does work, an internal plug will also work and will give you a smoother looking repair, but may not be as strong.

Norm

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 09:27PM

I avoid all repairs and most blank manufacturers will work with you and heavily discount a new blank . It's the only thing that gives me true peace of mind , i know myself and would never consider a repaired rod "Better than new " but i also don't doubt that others may actually feel that way as indicated above . Having to strip components and rebuild may be something some people are just not willing to do but i would prefer to do that if i had the unfortunate happen.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: May 12, 2019 09:08AM

Your friend should recognize and accept the fact that the action of the repaired rod will be far different from what it was before it was broken. Friendship is more important than fish poles.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 12, 2019 01:06PM

If done right the action (and power) will not be significantly different than what it was before it was broken. I have data.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 12, 2019 02:34PM

Ralph O'Quinn did several tip section repairs for fisherman in this area that I personally know. Each told me that they could not tell any difference in the repaired rods and the originals. Of course, Ralph specialized in repair. It was a passion of his and he performed these repairs at a level that most rod builders who don't do such repairs on a regular basis are likely to do.

The article on repair in the library is Ralph's, and he wrote it not so much as a means of simply sticking a rod back together, but for repairing the rod so that any change in action, power, durability, etc., would be absolutely minimal.

................

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: May 12, 2019 05:55PM

I have made tracings of the arc of a repaired rod blank bent 70 degrees or so. They looked a lot different than the arc of the same blank undamaged. Of course it's possible few people can "feel" the difference, but that would make advertisements or recommendations based upon a rod blank's "feel" rather useless - except for stimulating sales.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 12, 2019 06:07PM

Phil, the method works on most repairs. I expect there are some that may be beyond good repair, but like it or not, the method repairs most rods to a state that CCS cannot tell the difference between the new rod and the repaired rod. You always want data, and I have it. And the data say (yes , data is plural) that one will not, most of the time, be disappointed in the repair because of changes in action or power. Of course the weight will go up a few tenths of ounces, which most will not detect. I'm gone.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 12, 2019 08:21PM

I think Phil was meaning having the exact arc and measurements is quite different than not being able to "Feel" a difference after a repair. I don't doubt that many notice no difference and are very happy with a repair but that doesn't mean the blank is exactly the same as it was before the break.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 12, 2019 09:05PM

The rod arc that Phil traced may not have been a good repair. That's the whole point - a good repair, competently done, won't result in a different flex profile than the original. If it does, it's not a good repair.

..............

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 12, 2019 11:15PM

Tom always comes back with a response that makes you think , " You know that makes sense , he's right " it's why we cringe when we see a response by Tom right after we post about something , you just have that feeling he's going to correct an inaccuracy but he tends to just add info that often gets overlooked and makes you see it in a different way . Can he make you look bad , oh yes, but he never does . A class guy all around.

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Re: Repair or not to repair
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: May 13, 2019 12:51PM

An insert or sleeve is compulsory when repairing a broken tubular blank. How can this not influence the flexibility, the curve, and the weight of the blank? In this age of obsessing over milligrams of weight saved or added by guide trains - and paying more for less weight - is there a different standard for the differences in weight and flexibility which repair of broken blanks invariably causes?

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