How do the alps zirconium inserts with titanium frames compare to the fuji torzite with titanium frames?

Drew Pollock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> herb canter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > As i said in a previous post , Titanium is
> > corrosion resistant NOT corrosion proof .
> >
>
>
> Maybe after 40 years in a salt mine, or fished at
> the center of the sun, the titanium may oxidize a
> bit, but for all practical purposes, Fuji titanium
> guides do not show corrosion even after 5 years or
> more of normal salt water use. Same goes for the
> REC titanium-Nickel material.
>
> I would love to try a set of Torzite guides, and
> maybe I will on a 10 wt salt water set up. But it
> will be hard to spend that kind of $$, when I know
> from experience that even Fuji stainless holds up
> extremely well with normal care. BTW-thanks for
> the reality of the cost analysis and the counter
> point of relative expenses!
>
> I just built a couple of salt water 9 wts and used
> a titanium-SiC tip, REC snakes, and the new
> corrosion control Alconites for the strippers. It
> will be interesting to see how they hold up.




Titanium is the most corrosion resistant material you can buy for guide frame material imo , i just don't like to refer to it as being completely corrosion proof because i can't find any references to titanium being completely corrosion proof .


# 1 - Titanium is a very reactive metal that shows remarkable corrosion resistance in oxidizing acid environments by virtue of a passive oxide film. Following its commercial introduction in the 1950's, titanium has become an established corrosion resistant material"

#-2- "The corrosion resistance of titanium is well documented. A stable, substantially inert oxide film provides the material with outstanding resistance to corrosion in a wide range of aggressive media"


I haven't had a regular Fuji stainless frame rust out on me in decades so i don't put to much weight into how corrosion proof guides are , the fact that they weigh considerably less than non titanium frames intrigues me greatly though . I have little doubt Fuji's corrosion control frames will do what Fuji claims they will do especially if you're the type of angler that repeatedly forgets to wash off their equipment after a days fishing.

Robert Ford Wrote:
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> How do the alps zirconium inserts with titanium
> frames compare to the fuji torzite with titanium
> frames?



While i don't have a rod equipped with ALPS titanium frames i do have one that i have fished for years in the salt that has ALPS 316 ( S-6) stainless frames with Zirconia rings instead of the widely used and accepted 304/306 frames and the 316 is exceptionally corrosion resistant showing zero signs of corrosion when left submerged for over 8 weeks in seawater . 316 is a slightly softer material than the 304/306 stainless however but plenty hard enough for guide frames.


I have always considered ALPS components on the same level as Fuji , absolute top shelf stuff .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2019 03:58PM by herb canter.

Norman Miller Wrote:
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> As I mentioned, for most inshore and freshwater
> fishing I do, Alconite performs as well as
> Torzite, and I stick by that comment. I don’t
> fish for giant hard fighting fish. The hack saw
> demonstration was to demonstrate that all were
> very hard and capable of holding up to braid,
> nothing more nothing less. I have fished with rods
> having all of these various ring types, and I was
> underwhelmed by the enhanced performance of
> Torzite I thought I would get over Alconite, I
> guess I was expecting a lot more for the
> differences in price. If it cast any further or
> handled fish any better it was not by much, if
> any. I guess I’m one of those skeptics that
> doesn’t mind spending money to try things, but I
> also don’t like to waste money on things that I
> don’t need. In my opinion, Torzite is overkill
> for the fishing I do, but may not be for the
> fishing others do. I do concede that Torzite
> guides are really the best, just don’t think
> they are worth the excess cost unless you really
> want the best. That my honest opinion, and
> pertains only to me and the type of fishing I do.
> Norm



I only disagreed with the comment that " Alconite's performance is every bit as good as Torzite " but you meant "For you" and you have every right to feel that way , you're not alone in your thinking and views either because countless others feel the same way . I love Alconite myself and it was my #1 choice for a variety of reasons and it's still the best value in guide rings imo , you can't do better for the money spent . I also realize that Alconite is not as slippery of a material as Torzite but as you mentioned the performance difference is subtle and Torzite is a hard sell for a lot of anglers .

I think nobody would disagree it is the best currently offered by Fuji and if it was priced much more reasonably i have little doubt most would be choosing Torzite but the fact is it's still very pricey and only if heavily discounted or if it returns to being offered in frames other than titanium will it's popularity go way up.

Thanks for your comments Norm

Just to mix it up a little bit. Let’s throw in the PacBag Minima guides. How do y’all feel that they are compared to the others mentioned?

Should start another thread on them. I use them a lot on UL to M spin rods and on some casting rods. I use the M and F guides to mimic KR concept reduction and running guides, respectively, and the double ft T guides and F guides for casting rods.Their major claim to fame is their lightness and low cost. A whole set of Minima spin guides will weigh less than a single stainless ceramic ring stripper guide. The hard chrome ring insert is not as hard as ceramic rings and I have seen grooving in the tip tops on some rods that are fished very hard, but only the tip top so far. If you want something very light these are the guides. A very good bang for the buck.

Norm

herb canter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Ford Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How do the alps zirconium inserts with titanium
> > frames compare to the fuji torzite with
> titanium
> > frames?
>
>
>
> While i don't have a rod equipped with ALPS
> titanium frames i do have one that i have fished
> for years in the salt that has ALPS 316 ( S-6)
> stainless frames with Zirconia rings instead of
> the widely used and accepted 304/306 frames and
> the 316 is exceptionally corrosion resistant
> showing zero signs of corrosion when left
> submerged for over 8 weeks in seawater . 316 is a
> slightly softer material than the 304/306
> stainless however but plenty hard enough for guide
> frames.
>
>
> I have always considered ALPS components on the
> same level as Fuji , absolute top shelf stuff .

I love the alps stuff as well as fuji, I was more wondering if the torzite material is the same as zirconium or different materials?

I'd place zirconium between alconite and SIC, but far closer to the alconite side.

Difference is small enough to fall into the "can't tell the difference" area.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

At one point i had a chart showing all the different ceramic ring materials and their hardness rating but Torzite was to come years later so nothing concrete on that. Fuji has said that Torzite approaches SIC's hardness level but they are not willing to claim it exceeds or even equals SIC in that area which i appreciate because that shows me that there is credibility with them and they aren't willing to claim things that will prove untrue in the future .

Fuji pushes the durability aspect , the higher polish and slickness of the ring, it's lighter weight and the rings thinner inside diameter advantages when comparing them to Fuji's other ring materials . As far as Zirconium , it's proven to be a very good ring material and it's very hard, a select few manufacturers who offer Zirconium as guide rings have claimed it's on SIC's level but i have serious doubts , what i have seen is people listing it as a notch above Alconite but i haven't seen anything conclusive , it's a very good ring material though and performed great with solid durability .

That's what I thought,that it was similar to Alconite. I am planning a guide train for a NFC steelhead rod casting build and want the very best. It's looking like Torzite fujis!

Remember folks, when a rod is cast, with a well designed guide train, there should be next to 0 contact of the line to the guides.

Hence, on the CAST, by and large, the type and material of the guide and or insert is 2nd, 4th, or 10th order with respect to limiting the casting distance.

In contrast, if using braid in muddy water with lots of sand and junk in the water catching big hard fighting fish which make long, long runs - then the guide material and type insert can have an effect on the ease in reeling in the fish. But, even under these conditions, virtually all of the ceramic style inserts will show no wear and gooving even after prolonged periods of heavy use. Under these conditions, you are essentially running hundreds of yards of sand paper through the guides after years of rod use.

Be safe

When setting up a rod to be used with one specific reel you can get outstanding performance results which leads to very little line contact and friction on a cast and this does lead to the best distance capabilities especially with the use of heavier lines. Building a rod to be used with a variety of reels won't allow you to dial in a perfect layout but you can still build a great all around performer regardless of what reel you stick on it especially if you decide to use lines that are on the lighter side which are far more forgiving.


As far as fishing dirty water and your line picking up abrasive particles that had a tendency to wear on line guides that was a topic discussed at great length in braids earlier years because it was an issue back then but it's rarely mentioned these days as braided lines AND guide ring ceramics have improved to such a large degree . When braid and fused superlines first hit the market regardless of whether they were constructed of Spectra or Dyneema many were quite abrasive just by themselves but those days have long past.

As mentioned by other posters , modern ceramics are virtually trouble free and can be counted on to handle anything you throw at them , some are lighter weight than others , some are able to achieve a higher polish and are more slippery than others , some handle heat better , some offer larger inside ring diameters when compared to identically sized guide rings using another type of ring material , some are less prone to develop a hairline fracture if accidentally banged into something and so on , there is something to choose for every angler out there and for every budget .

There are two major reasons why I almost exclusively use Fuji KR guides. First, they are excellent guides,, very strong, durable and well made. Second, I love the KR concept, it is truly a performance enhancer in my opinion. Very few manufacturers make guides that can be used to mimic the KL-H guides. There are a few copy cats out there, but Fuji exhaustively designed and researched this guide concept.
Norm

Don't rule out Pacific Bay's Minima Match guides in place of the Fuji KR specific guides because Norm uses those and raves about them . I wouldn't hesitate to use them on a high end blank & the price difference between them and the Titanium Torzite is huge , a big plus is the Minima Match guides are incredibly lightweight all by themselves , you can even get them with titanium frames if you really want titanium i believe .

I have been following the post for awhile and just can’t stand not adding my 2 cents worth anymore. Regardless of manufacturer, any of the presently available ceramic-ringed guides are adequate or surpass what 95% of the anglers out there need. While I am a profound supporter of anything Fuji and love their Alconite guides, I have used their Torsite offerings and PacBay M and F guides for particular builds. It all boils-down to what the end customer requires and can afford to spend. Torsite is probably the most advanced and best performing ring material out there, but at what cost or effectiveness?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I think we all know how some people think when it comes to things we're excited about and thats " Whats the best " _____________ because thats what i want "The best " and i don't care about the cost lol. One of the most asked questions of all time on rod building and general fishing forums is " Whats the best rod" , it never ends .

I agree 100% with everybody who has said all modern ceramics are more than good enough for any fishing situation because it's true . Anglers were catching monster fish long before all these space age materials were even around. I think we tend to get bored and want to try new things , everybody knows that shiny new toy only captivates our interest for so long & then we seek out something more fascinating until we toss that aside and it goes on and on and on.

It truly never ends & most of us are powerless against it , when the ICRBE comes around every year most of us get very excited , new cool stuff to check out even though what we have does the job just fine.

The thinness (is that a word?) of Torzite is the real attractor to me. The supposed "toughness" is also welcome. Sounds perfect for non-traditional fly guides which is my interest. Maybe downsize from 8 to 7 runners, maybe a better top is coming, it's good stuff. Interested, for sure.

My own bias is that ceramic ring fly guides will win in the end down to about 5 weight. It might take another 50 years to get there, but that's where we're headed.

I've never been hugely concerned about weight, but I do have a new 0.01gm scale so maybe it's time. I do thrash through the bush a bit, so tougher is better. It's why I like Fuji guides. They do hold up better.

But, dang, in Fuji's larger sizes that Torzite is $$$$. I'm not spending $50 for 1 guide. In fly rods, at least, Alconite is great, and SiC works too. But now to get titanium frames you also have to upgrade to Torzite? I might wait that one out.

Come on Fuji-Give us the Titanium with the alconite! Save us some needless $ spent. Customer for life here!

When they say different strokes for different folks that certainly is true , what appealed to me most was how slippery they have shown to be . On another note Alconite was offered with titanium frames for awhile and a select few sponsors still have leftover stock but the selection is virtually non existent these days . Unfortunately Fuji stopped offering Alconite with the titanium frames and my belief is they were taking a big bite out of the sales of the titanium and Torzite combination . Fuji has claimed they believed if people chose titanium frames they would want to match them up with either SIC or Torzite and not Alconite .

I think they were way off with that belief but i'm sure they're sticking to it . Herb L of HNL rod blanks is a fly rod guru and he loves Torzite and CTS now offers a lot of Fuji guides in Torzite so the fly rod world seems to be quite interested in them . I agree that the titanium Torzite in the larger sizes is crazy expensive but the weight of Fuji's larger guides in regular stainless frames is heavier than i believe they need to be . I would love to see if Fuji can come up with a lighter weight non titanium frame because imo some other manufacturers metal frames are lighter .

One correction, you don't need to go with Torzite if you want titanium frames as titanium frames are offered with SIC rings but maybe you're referring to fly rod guides which i am not familiar with so if thats the case forgive my mistake. Slim SIC rings are very nice i just can't find many guides that are offered in the slim version.

The slim Sic ring Is used only in K series and RV guides with the black Titanium frame (T2) or the stainless gunmetal (GM) frame. So you do have a choice of either titanium or stainless frames with these rings. I really like the looks of the T2 Black titanium frame, and it’s the same price as the regular titanium Sic guides.
Norm

With all this being said, I long for the Cermet rings. LOL