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Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Shaun Belcher (---.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
Date: May 06, 2019 06:06PM

Im in the middle of rebuilding some vintage fibreglass rods which require replacing the guides and about to order some from mudhole.
Since we cant post photos here, i have shared the photo in the google drive link below.

The rod on the left has only 2 guides and a tip, yet ive got another rod of identical size with 4 guides plus the tip, will adding more guides be an issue? (its a bit stiffer than my other rod, but still, 2 guides is not much)
The yellow rod in the middle is pretty straight forward and will replace all the guides, but dont know about the tip. Its still in good condition with little corrosion, but am considering re-chroming it when i send in some reel parts to be re-plated, i could replace it with a typical tip, but being so unique i thought i would keep it.
The main concern for me is on the rod on the right with the penn senator.
Its only got 3 guides plus the roller tip, someone has put some new fuji style guides on it and i have no idea if they are even the correct size.
I believe the tip is a size #16. The top of the rod is 7mm thick at the base of where the roller tip is and the base of the rod where the handle finishes is 16.5mm thick 1260mm (49.5 inches)

When I tested the guides and rod by pulling the line, i could get the line to touch the rod with not much effort, I dont know if this is common, but i dont like the look of it, especially considering a large kingfish would likely bend the rod much more.
I know that the way guides are calculated and places is different than when these rods were made, but i still thought for such a rod it is a bit on the light side.
I was playing around with calculators online, but have no idea if they apply to these kind of rods or not. One rule i read is one guide for every 12 inches, plus one extra plus the tip, that would bring it to 5 guides in total.

Either way, I was going to order some ceramic guides from mudhole of the correct period of this rod.

Thanks for any help here :)

[drive.google.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2019 09:14PM by Shaun Belcher.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 06, 2019 06:32PM

I think all three rods would benefit from more guides just to spread out the forces involved in handling large fish like Kingfish. Do a static test to determine where the guides should be placed. I would use more modern types of guides. Guides are much better now then they were back when these rods were make.
Norm

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Grant Darby (---.prod-infinitum.com.mx)
Date: May 06, 2019 06:56PM

If you are restoring the rods, use the same guides and placement. If you want the rods to go to work again, strip them down, clean the blank, static test and add the proper number of guides. You'll have to remove the tip top to determine sizing and should probably add a roller tip that's braid compatible if you want to use rollers. Nearly all guides made in this era are good with braid. Can't see the pics, so I'm flyin' blind here. Restorations are fun and rewarding, but also much more work than a from scratch build.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Shaun Belcher (---.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
Date: May 06, 2019 09:53PM

Grant Darby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are restoring the rods, use the same guides
> and placement. If you want the rods to go to work
> again, strip them down, clean the blank, static
> test and add the proper number of guides. You'll
> have to remove the tip top to determine sizing
> and should probably add a roller tip that's braid
> compatible if you want to use rollers. Nearly all
> guides made in this era are good with braid. Can't
> see the pics, so I'm flyin' blind here.
> Restorations are fun and rewarding, but also much
> more work than a from scratch build.


I agree, what annoys me is the last person had coated the whole rod with polyurethane, probably thinking it was an amazing job, but it appears to peel off rather easy and not stick well, so should hopefully strip down easy enough.
Is it ok to coat such rods in fibreglass resin, or is there a better product out there?
I do want to use these rods as well as restore, so want to keep them fairly original, fuji guides do not exactly look right on these rods.
I must say I do enjoy restoring these rods and have a bunch i should repair and sell on to a new home, it seems there are still a fair few people fishing with these rods here in New Zealand, when i was a child i saw alot of these being used through the early 1990's still, and they seem to sell for alot more nowdays.
On the smaller rods, i will keep the original spec chrome guides which will be better as the pacbay ones are chrome over stainless, but on the larger game rod I will go with these here from mudhole which are still original spec for other rods of this era ive seen. see this link at [www.mudhole.com]

I dont often use braid, especially on the smaller rods, i might use it on the penn senator, but ceramic guides and a roller tip should be OK with it I would expect, especially since its not going to be getting heavy use.

Anyway, regarding static testing, are there any tutorials on this anywhere? Ive never done this before, but will be useful when i come to building my own custom rod in the future.
Im thinking adding one extra guide will be enough. Any ideas what sizes you recommend? Do any of these online calculators apply to these types of rods? The ones ive played around were for spinning reels only, so not sure if that applies to a conventional reel.
You should see the words [drive dot google dot com] at the bottom of my first post, that will take you to the image.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2019 10:43PM by Shaun Belcher.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 06, 2019 10:26PM

Here is an article from the library.
[www.rodbuilding.org]
I guess I’m more of a refurbisher than a restorer.
Norm

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Shaun Belcher (---.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
Date: May 06, 2019 11:12PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is an article from the library.
> [www.rodbuilding.org]
> ml
> I guess I’m more of a refurbisher than a
> restorer.
> Norm


Thanks for that, looks like i need to buy a bunch of guides first and experiment i guess?

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Grant Darby (---.prod-infinitum.com.mx)
Date: May 07, 2019 11:26AM

Extra guides are never a problem, just an advance on the next project! My comment about the roller tip refers to the the very much thinner diameter of the braid. It often gets stuck between the roller and frame....not good. Newer roller tip tops are better designed to handle today's braids. Tons of info on guide placement, you have to sift through the junk and science reports, but it's actually a simple process. God luck.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Shaun Belcher (---.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
Date: May 08, 2019 08:03AM

Grant Darby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Extra guides are never a problem, just an advance
> on the next project! My comment about the roller
> tip refers to the the very much thinner diameter
> of the braid. It often gets stuck between the
> roller and frame....not good. Newer roller tip
> tops are better designed to handle today's braids.
> Tons of info on guide placement, you have to sift
> through the junk and science reports, but it's
> actually a simple process. God luck.

OK, well the roller tip ive got seems OK in this regard, but my senator is loaded with 50lb mono anyway, so should not be an issue.
Have ordered some guides and will see how i can go with 4 guides plus the tip on this rod.

Does anyone know where to get the dye for painting the binding thread?
Mine seems to have used white thread, but red stripes have been painted on to the thread before the varnish was applied.
Would like to try and replicate the same pattern if possible.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Anthony Unger (---.15.236.249.res-cmts.ovr.ptd.net)
Date: May 08, 2019 11:20AM

You can use testors modeling paint, but trying to replicate the pattern with thread will give you a much more attractive look.. If your talking about the rod on the right i personally would go with thread in the respective color, if anything.. It makes for gokd practice

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Grant Darby (---.prod-infinitum.com.mx)
Date: May 08, 2019 02:55PM

White color fast thread touched with a colored permanent marker while the rod is turning.....cheap, fast, easy....but not nearly as goodlooking as done with colored thread.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Shaun Belcher (---.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
Date: May 08, 2019 09:49PM

Grant Darby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> White color fast thread touched with a colored
> permanent marker while the rod is
> turning.....cheap, fast, easy....but not nearly as
> goodlooking as done with colored thread.

OK, thanks for that. I just dont know if its more secure to have one continuous wind of a single thread rather than putting several threads next to each other when holding the guides down?
I will experiment with different methods I think to see if i can match the original pattern the best.
Marker pen could work very well, and i was thinking of testors paint myself too.

Either way, any suggestions for removing the polyurethane on this rod without damaging it? It seems to peel off in places rather easily.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: David Horvath (---.mobile.att.net)
Date: May 10, 2019 08:02PM

Im interested to know what you guys use for stripping the old thread sealer or stripping/cleaning a blank you are replacing a guide on??

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Shaun Belcher (---.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
Date: May 11, 2019 03:24AM

I would like to know too.
Is paint stripper safe to use?
I think it scratches off easy enough and seems that the stuff on the rods ive got is more like lacquer as methylated spirits seems to re-activate it.

What do people re-coat these rods with nowdays?
Its good to see im not the only one who repairs and rebuilds these rods.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 11:38AM

A number of people have recommended using Citri-Strip and a scotch brite pad for removing the old paint. Others will use a blade held at 90 degrees to scape the finish off. Once the paint or finish is off the blank, you can be wet sanded with 800 to 200O grit wet/dry sand paper to get rid of any trace of old finish. This wet sanding is almost like polishing the blank rather than sanding it. Once you have it stripped to your liking you can clear coat it using Permagloss. This is applied by wiping on by hand using a cosmetic sponge, cheese cloth, or a coffee filter. Wear nitrile gloves and Saturate the applicator with Permagloss. Start at the tip of the blank and wipe down the blank holding the applicator tight around the blank to get a squeegee effect. Only takes a few seconds. Prop the blank against the wall and let cure. If applied properly it will not run. You can recoat, if you want, in less than an hour. Gives a very hard and durable finish that will last for a long time. There is a ton of information on this forum concerning these topics. Do a search on Citri Strip , rod stripping, painting rods, and/ or Permagloss application. You will get a lot of reading, but will find the info you want.
Norm

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: David Horvath (---.rtcol.com)
Date: May 11, 2019 03:02PM

Thanks for the info Norm, I didn’t have the correct keywords when I was searching.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Shaun Belcher (---.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
Date: May 11, 2019 07:08PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A number of people have recommended using
> Citri-Strip and a scotch brite pad for removing
> the old paint. Others will use a blade held at 90
> degrees to scape the finish off. Once the paint or
> finish is off the blank, you can be wet sanded
> with 800 to 200O grit wet/dry sand paper to get
> rid of any trace of old finish. This wet sanding
> is almost like polishing the blank rather than
> sanding it. Once you have it stripped to your
> liking you can clear coat it using Permagloss.
> This is applied by wiping on by hand using a
> cosmetic sponge, cheese cloth, or a coffee filter.
> Wear nitrile gloves and Saturate the applicator
> with Permagloss. Start at the tip of the blank and
> wipe down the blank holding the applicator tight
> around the blank to get a squeegee effect. Only
> takes a few seconds. Prop the blank against the
> wall and let cure. If applied properly it will not
> run. You can recoat, if you want, in less than an
> hour. Gives a very hard and durable finish that
> will last for a long time. There is a ton of
> information on this forum concerning these topics.
> Do a search on Citri Strip , rod stripping,
> painting rods, and/ or Permagloss application. You
> will get a lot of reading, but will find the info
> you want.
> Norm


Thanks will do, dont know if these products are available in New Zealand or not though.
Is it basically an epoxy resin? Is this the same stuff you can coat the binding wraps with?
In the past ive just used fibreglass resin, but i think it can go yellow over time. Would like to use the right stuff this time.
One rod ive got has a thick coating of polyurethane full of runs everywhere, will need to spend a bit removing all of this.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 08:30PM

Permagloss is a U40 product. It is a very thin, and water clear urethane finish that will not yellow. It is catalyzed by moisture in the air. It cures very hard and clear and will not yellow. You can use it for finishing wraps but requires multiple coats to get the proper depth. It is the best clear coat I have used on rod blanks, and it is extremely easy to apply. Because it is moisture curing you have to be careful how you store it. I store it in the the refrigerator inside an air tight jar with desiccant in the jar. It lasts a long time stored this way. If you just stick it on the shelf, it is very likely the next time you open it, it will be rock hard.
[www.u-40.com])
Norm

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: May 11, 2019 10:06PM

Citri- Strip and Scotchbrite for removing paint and old finish, Can let it sit overnight safely. And then it might need more. Some paints don't want to give up.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Shaun Belcher (---.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
Date: May 11, 2019 11:30PM

Im seeing prokote thrown around a bit too. That looks like an epoxy. I see mudhole stock all these products, but have no idea if they would ship something flammable internationally as its probably considered dangerous goods.
Also is it typical to coat the rod blank first before binding the guides onto it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 11:31PM by Shaun Belcher.

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Re: Advice on replacing guides on vintage fibreglass rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 12, 2019 12:33AM

Yes, Coat first then wrap on the guides. Don’t know anything about availability of rod finishes in New Zealand. Check with some local rod builders. I assume there are a lot of rod builders there, and they know what is available and where it’s sold. They have to get there supplies from somewhere.
Norm

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