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Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: Ed Kramer (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
Date: April 13, 2019 12:43AM

I was laying out guides for a rod. I started to question the layout? I asked, for what condition is it best to design the rod? I thought of the the following:

1. Casting: What configuration provides the best for distance?

2. Retrieval: A low stress situation that is not considered a determinate.

3. Hookset: I thought this is the most stressful situation but the least used, therefore not a determinate.

4. Fighting: Once hooked, the fisherman can control how the rod is used. ie. the angle, the stress point, the tension etc. Therefore, not as much a determinate, since you can lean into the butt of
the rod for strength and use the drag.

5. Landing: Not considered a determinate except for the stress due to high sticking which is controlled by the fisherman.

Based on the above, Casting seems to be the most determinate factor.

The configurations I thought of are:

1. Developing a reduction train.

For spinning rods, reductions trains are nicely defined by the concepts noted in the Fuji resources., and in other manufacturers designs. This seems the most logical and practical.

For casting rods, there is no reduction train.
For traditional layouts, the stripper is on top along with the running guides.
For spiral wraps, the reduction train is basically the wrap that gets the line to the bottom of the rod. There are different theories about the number of guides to get to the bottom of the rod
(choose your poison) , and once to the bottom it essentially is a spinning rod.

2. Developing a running train.

A. Stress the rod and align the guides, based on a smooth transition, across the blank from the choke (bottom guide for a spiral wrap) to the tip.

B. Stress, the rod, find the point of the highest stress, place a guide there, and work your way to the tip and to the butt smoothing the curve.

C. Use a mathematical calculation that locates the guides uniformly from the tip to the choke guide, increasing in distance from the tip to the choke. ie. the 1.1 factor.

3. Determine the number of guides for the running train:

I'm having trouble defining this. How many are necessary to control the line and allow for smooth casting without increasing friction and limit casting?

Therefore, If I want to build a rod and maximize the casting distance:

1. Rod blank is based on user preference.
2. Reduction trains are adequately defined.
3. How many running guides are optimal?
4. What is the optimal theory for placement of running guides?

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: April 13, 2019 04:10AM

Ed,
You need to switch to decaf buddy, or make an Irish Coffee next time, LOL.
What good does a long cast do me if it causes the line to cross three different current seams, making it impossible to get a natural drift? What good does a long cast do you if your presentation doesn't allow you to feel the take, or set the hook at that distance? 90 % of fhe fish are in 10% of the water, wouldn't it be best to fish that water? Let's say your fancasting an area, the fish's strike zone is only a few feet, they're not interested in chasing. The further you are away the further between one cast and the other if your keeping your angle from each cast the same, so you have a good chance of missing fish because your offering is to far away, or you'll spend all day there picking apart that area, each long cast takes longer to get back to you right?
I guess what I"m saying is that the gear you use is just tools, and that for many fishing situations that tool, be it a custom rod, or off the rack rod, and within reason any price point will cast further than you can effectively fish it.
IMO, distance is not my first consideration.
Everyone has an opinion on guide spacing, I personally think guide spacing is for the protection of the rod, to spead the stresses out enough to keep from damaging the rod in use. I also take into account what the rod is used for, and set my priorities accordingly. Why would I need the same guide train on a jigging spin rod used mostly vertical and will rarely be casting past 40 ft? Wouldn't it be wiser to put on smaller, lighter guides to decrease weight, improve balance and sensitivity and will cast well past my normal distance? Would I need a long distance guide train on a small stream trout or bass rod?
Want to get an idea what I'm talking about? Take one of your lighter powered casting rods, and put a like sized spinning reel on it and go out and do some test casting. Wouldn't you agree this is pretty close to a worse case scenerio for a spinning setup? Does the rod feel pretty good as far as weight and balance compared to your spinning rod? I hope I helped.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2019 04:31AM by Spencer Phipps.

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: Ed Kramer (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
Date: April 13, 2019 09:21AM

This is what happens when you have too many adult beverages and start solving the world's problems. LOL

On a serious note, distance counts for me when I am fishing sinking lures and suspending lures and I'm trying to keep them in the strike zone on wide open water.

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: brian rossi (---.mobile.att.net)
Date: April 13, 2019 09:53AM

Maybe somebody will say otherwise but I don't think you'll get much of an impact in distance in regards to the layout. I say that because my spiral wrapped rods cast equally as well as the conventional ones. If sending the line around like that doesn't matter I don't think tweaking a few runners will. Fuji does make a guide specifically for kr concept casting rods but I haven't tried it. I believe you'll see the biggest gains or losses in distance are related to your reel.

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: Donald La Mar (---.lightspeed.lsvlky.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 13, 2019 10:28AM

Wait a minute. Let's think about this. Let's assume a rod built with the perfect guide styles, sizes, materials, and locations to maximize casting distance which is the highest priority superior to to all other considerations and functions. Would you truly want to fish such a rod? I'll vote no, but that could just be me.

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: April 13, 2019 03:59PM

Ed,
Actually, there is only one consideration when building a rod.

Build the best rod possible for the client, his needs, and the fish he /she is going to catch.

Best wishes

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: John DeMartini (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: April 13, 2019 04:28PM

Golfers and all the different clubs in their bag.

Carpenters and all the different kinds of hammers.

Artists and all the different brushes.

Fishermen and fishing rods.Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Have fun

John

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 13, 2019 07:12PM

Go with one chain of thought and carry it out to the end. Once completed improve on the concept. It is evolutionary and will change as you make changes. This is the only way to build concepts and sometimes there will be mistakes. Mistakes and failures are opportunities for learning so take advantage of them. Now pass that joint my way...........



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2019 08:14PM by Lance Schreckenbach.

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: April 13, 2019 07:48PM

Do a little more reading.

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: April 13, 2019 09:24PM

So the rest of you on this site consider me to be the Habitual-Over-Thinker? Careful, Ed, you are close to stepping on my toes as it has taken me quite a while to earn that cherished title lol! Even with all the programs, formulas, hype and opinions out there, there really is NO generically best or proper guide height, ring size, spacing, number, type, style, blank, length, thread, epoxy, grip material, line, knots, reel, lures and certainly not anglers. The custom rod builder is employed to utilize his level of experience and understanding of the craft to produce the best possible fishing instrument for any or a particular angler in any or a particular fishing situation. The more experience and understanding of the craft possessed by the builder = the closer the rod will be to satisfying the anglers needs, desire and expectations. That experience and understanding is based on experimentation to provide a broad base of knowledge even though there are those who simply follow what others say is the “best or proper”.
This site WILL afford anyone viewing and asking a wealth of information from qualified, veteran rod builders who graciously divulge years of their personal experience to help others less experienced. But there are tried-and-true starting points such as GPS from Anglers Resource to simplify and satisfy your basic question regarding guide trains, at least the reduction portion. You already seem to have an idea of how static testing for runner placement works. Use it to determine how many, or few, runners are required for your particular build. Use both and experiment, learn and enjoy from there.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Questions for the masters out there
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: April 14, 2019 02:26PM

Lance, Dude!

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