One more super basic question - sorry about this - as I'm going to attempt my first casting rod ever.

Up to this point, I've only built spinning rods. I'm very comfortable with my guide spacing etc. Howevver, don't have a clue with casting rods.

I want to build some UL (BFS) rods for baitcasting. Lines will be no more than 6 lbs, and more likely 2-4 lbs. I will also spiral wrap. Since the middle and running guides will be under the rod, 2 questions:

1. How far for the 1st and 2nd guid?
2. For the middle and running guides, can I just mirror my spinning guides since they are hanging under the rod and don't need to clear the blank?

Again, sorry about this basic question which for all of you who build casting rods, should be elementary.

Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2019 01:33AM by Mo Yang.

You have to do a static test - no two blanks are same.
I have used many light casting rods before my fly casting days - I don't think I would build an untra light - or a light actioned rod with a spiral wrap.

There is very little risk of rod twist and - imo - you will negatively affect the casting distance.
Herb

what is the purpose of a spiral wrapped UL rod?

i do it because it feels like a better fish fighting tool no matter what power the rod is..

and especially if it,s a fast or extra fast tip..

Go for it Mo. Just a couple of questions; How long is the rod and what kind of reel are you going to use? Typically the spacing for your running guides will be about the same as on a spinning rod using the concept system (rapid reduction). The main difference will be the stripper guides or the first 3 on the reel side due to the ring size. Don't worry about the guys that are down on the spiral wraps because there will be no reduction in casting distance if you do it right.

Mo,
You have received good replies. The first four words in the reply from Lance is probably the best,”Go for it Mo”. The benefits of a spiral wrapped rod under load will be much less noticed on an UL trout rod as compared to a tuna rod. Personally, I don’t know if I would bother on a build like yours but then all my UL rods are spinning. However, now that I have experienced the huge benefits, any conventional rod I build over 20lb will, or I will at least suggest to, utilize a spiral wrap.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

It seems the responses are not in favor of spiral wrap for ultra lites. However not to discourage you my suggestion is to spiral wrap the guides but do not apply thread finish.

Go fishing with the rod if it turns out to not to your liking then you can easily unwrap it and and go to the straight layout.

Have fun

John

Building and fishing a spiral wrapped UL rod is certainly not a bad thing; you have nothing to lose including casting distance if laid-out properly. That point may be arguable but I have not noticed a loss in casting distance. The point I attempted to make was that it is not as necessary or noticeable on an UL as it would be on a heavier rod. But then, if you hook-up with that once-in-a-lifetime-trophy-fish, you might be very happy the rod is spiral wrapped. Again, go for it! Experimentation is a good thing and arguable by only a very small minority. Do it and let us know how it turns out. Good luck!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I built an ultralight spiral wrapped spincast rod. When trying to reach some crappies from a boat, It cast 1/32 oz. jigs just as far as an ultralight spinning set up I had with me. I would not shy away from the spiral wrap.

Mo,
Are you still there? Hopefully none of us scared you off!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thanks Everyone.

Nah, Mark - did not scare me off at all. IN a bit of a medical situation with a family member and still at the hospital. Just checking in for a quick read and be off again.

1. Huge thanks to all. As always - very grateful for this board/forum.

2. Reels used - varies from low end Tsurinoya to upper end which is probably the ultimate BFS in the Shimano 16 Aldebaran BFS with an aftermarket spool that weighs about 4 grams or 1/7th of an ounce for the spool. This thing can cast a 1 gram (1/28 oz) jig over 50 feet.

3. Rod length. Varies from under 5 feet to 7 feet. First one will be just a hair under 5 feet.

4. Spiral and casting distance. By my line of reasoning, I doubt that spiral will impact casting distance appreciably. The baitcasting reel's first choke point is maybe 1/2 inch from the spool, and it still can cast a long distance. That's a radical amount of 'choking' angle compared to guides. So it seems that to spiral or not spiral will make not make a whole lot of difference compared to the first 'guide' at the reel in terms of casting distance. At least that's my reasoning. That's assuming, it seems, that the line is not dragging on the blank. So I'll have to figure out the spiral pattern both with the rod straight and under load.

5. Why spiral? I dunno - but it seems to make sense to have the rod orient naturally under load (fish fighting) rarther than my grip forcing the line to be above the blank. This is definitely influenced by my spinning background. Also, this allows fewer guides as I don't have to 'lift' the line off the blank when loading, which I assume is a good thing for UL. Even if it offfers a 1% advantage, I'll take it. My style of build is such that I'll take any and all advantages - no matter how tiny. (I weigh my guides down to .001 ounces...just because it is not much effort to do that.) So, unless spiral has NEGATIVE costs that outweigh the advantages, I'll do a spiral.

6. I'm planning on making the butt spiral already somewhat off axis from the reel 'guide'. Since I am going to spiral, I figure I might as well have the line coming off the reel to start spiraling right away - but it won't be radical - maybe 10 - 20 degrees? I'll have to eyeball it to see how it looks intuitively. Happy to have any input.


So three follow-up questions:

1. What should the distance be from the first 'guide' (not sure of the term) at the baitcasting reel, and the butt guide on the rod? Is there a general rule on this?

2. And assuming no thicker than 6 lbs test, what size butt guide?

3. And given only 2-6 lbs, can I just use a single foot Fuji T-KTTG? I don't see why a single foot won't be strong enough if it is capable of loading much more than 6 @#$%& on a spinning rod.

Thanks again everyone. You guys are champ!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2019 12:23AM by Mo Yang.

Mo,
I have found that the longer the rod the better it will cast lighter weights. The distance of the stripper guide (guide closest to the reel) should be 20" to 22" (508 mm to 559 mm) from the level wind face on the reel where it is mounted on the reel seat, depending on the length of the rod. I was building casting rods back in the 1990s with all single foot guides and IMX G Loomis blanks. For bait caster rods I used smaller diameter ring single foot spinning guides for the stripper because of the height and had no issues with the guides being damaged. Back then I was building a lot of 7’2” to 7’6” (2184 mm to 2286 mm) medium and medium light rods. Now I am building shorter 6’9” and 7’ rods with the stripper right at 21” set at 0° on the blank. I have been using NFC 7’ P 703-1 Lambda LMX blanks cut down to 6’ 9”. My personal rod is made with this blank cut down to 6’9” (2057 mm) with a 6 mm Fuji RV, 5 mm KB and the rest of the running guides 4 mm KBs and KTs at the tip end (9 total) and a 4.5 mm TT in a spiral wrap. The lightest thing I cast is 1/16 of an ounce or 1.77 grams and am using a similar reel to the Aldebaran, it is 50mg Shimano Core that is tricked out including ceramic bearings and graphite reel handle, etc. It can cast the lightest lures surprisingly well. If you offset the stripper (guide closest the reel) other than 0°, just make sure that the line spools back on the reel spool evenly and doesn’t pile up on one side of the spool. You can tape the guides on the blank to see if this happens but test it a few times. I have got a few medium light 6’9” Fuji Point Blanks that I am going to build spirals on like this. I hope your family member gets out of the hospital soon and I will pray for that.
Best of Luck,
Lance

Mo,
You should be very grateful for the in-depth reply from Lance. I would certainly not add to or alter his recommendations. He is apparently much more savvy to your type of build than me. Once again, GO FOR IT! But I hope you will afford us, at least me, with feedback as to the outcome.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

For me spiral is ideal for BFS for a good reason : you can use fewer guide on top of the rod (same spacing as spinning set up), so top of the rod lighter and more responsive.
I do test it cast as far as conventional set up.
Best first guide Fuji RV6.

KTTG will be adequate after the RV6 (or you can use one or two KBTG).

I build one NFC MB 661-1 (HM) as stated and I can’t dream of a better rod (I use Aldebaran BFS 16).

Some may chime but for me go spiral.

________________________________________
@+
Eric
[www.emfishing.fr]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2019 03:08AM by Eric MONTACLAIR.

A few years ago I built a spiral wrapped bait caster using a St. Croix Elite spinning blank matched with a Shimano Japanese Scorpion reel to cast light lures (1/8 oz) just for the experiment. It came better than I had anticipated. Reason for my post is simply anecdotal evidence of what you are trying to do.....go for it!

Ray Zarychta
Glastonbury, CT

you can buy a very nice ul spin reel for much less than a ul casting reel..is there much advantage to fishing with ul casting? with spin the guides are on the bottom and the reel is on the bottom for a perfect match and balance..also braided gel spun lines have made spinning even easier..jmo.

Lance, huge thanks. Bingo - that's what I needed. Invaluable.

Ben - Why UL casting? Just to try it out. There are proponents who talk about much better control in tight quarters, more accurate casts, faster recasts due to single handed cast (no opening bail with the off hand), no line twist, lighter overall rig (a couple of baicast are 4.5 ounce in weight), better sensitivity, and a more solid feel to the whole endeavor. You do deal with higher cost, a bit shorter casting distance, and possible birdsnest as drawbacks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2019 01:49AM by Mo Yang.

Mo,
One more observation for you to consider; the larger the load (big fish) and the longer the rod = the more noticeable the stability of a spiral wrapped rod becomes. On a 9ft rod, 75% of the guides might be on the bottom. I am uncertain how many guides will fit on the bottom of a sub-5ft rod. It is something to consider. Hopefully Lance or others will comment.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

thanks Mo..i don,t drive anymore so most of my fishing is local farm ponds with a brother or nephew after work..lots of times i can only fish from one side of the pond from shore but often casting against the wind and i was wondering if these newer casting reels overcame backlashes..like you i enjoy building ul spin rods but often thought about a caster..it sounds/reads like shimano is making progress with their casters but that,s costly for something that may end up collecting dust..i hope you get back to us with your findings..thanks...