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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 28, 2019 09:41PM

Even knowing what all these esoteric rod measurements mean, Phil will still have to try it to decide if he likes it or not. Subjective values play a real role, which cannot be under estimated, for choosing what you like. All I can say about rod harmonics is when you get ‘good vibes’ that’s when you know you like it.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2019 09:44PM by Norman Miller.

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 28, 2019 09:58PM

But once Phil knows the objective values and he decides he "likes it," he can duplicate it. Not so if he has only subjective values. They are so valuable now because we don't have the objective ones that we need. Or we don't use them when we have them.

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 28, 2019 10:18PM

Heck, that will take all the fun out of it! He will never have the need to try other blanks to see if he gets ‘good vibes’ from them. So if he finds one he likes then he should buy several in case it ever becomes discontinued and replaced with something newer and more soulful.
Norm

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 28, 2019 10:42PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heck, that will take all the fun out of it! He
> will never have the need to try other blanks to
> see if he gets ‘good vibes’ from them. So if
> he finds one he likes then he should buy several
> in case it ever becomes discontinued and replaced
> with something newer and more soulful.
> Norm


Norm , Phil has made it very clear that the terms "Smooth" "Powerful" "Accurate" and "Soulful" do NOT work for him , Phil needs factual concrete and verifiable data , how smooth, smoother than say a baby's butt ? How powerful, meaning exactly what , more powerful than locomotive ? Phil needs verifiable data dang it !!!!

Hang in there Phil i feel we're getting close.

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 28, 2019 10:52PM

OK after thinking it over a little more i have a question for Phil . How many blanks/rods have you purchased over the years that in the end you ended up disappointed in and felt you did not get your money's worth ?

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 01:01AM

So, Phil, do you really think they should develop metrics on very conceivable rod configuration? Example a X blank with, A, B, C & D guides in all the sizes?

Blank metrics will not tell you "how far in and inches" a rod will cast nor will it tell "how close they cast to the target".

There are many of us who do not rely on marketing jargon in making our blank decisions, but instead rely on our years of experience with the manufacturers products.

Fly fishing is not a science, or an engineering project, it is a personal adventure into the environment filled with hope, fun and enjoyment.

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 07:28AM

I hope the weather breaks soon so I can go fishing.

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Tom Ciannilli (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 07:37AM

Phil Erickson Wrote:

> Fly fishing is not a science, or an engineering
> project, it is a personal adventure into the
> environment filled with hope, fun and enjoyment.


^ great quote, agree completely.

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 09:33AM

Michael, I heard that this coming week will be extremely cold for most of the country including here in the South. Unfortunately, Spring has been delayed a little more for many of us. Looking forward to having fun with some new rods and seeing how they feel. Yep a change in the weather will give me some good vibes!
Norm

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: March 01, 2019 09:55AM

How can rod builders determine which components are best and which guide spacing is superior in actual performance if the only measurement they have to work with is how they feel?

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 10:15AM

Phil I think we all know that objective measurements are important, but building a rod is a personal thing and it’s is fun to figure out how to do it so you’re happy with it. So for me building a rod is part objective science and part subjective feelings. Building a rod is not all cut and dry science, and I’m very happy that there are a lot of very good blanks and components out there to try. My above comments were meant to be facetious, because it felt good to do so.
Norm

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 10:26AM

Phil,
I think that you are speaking to the wrong people when you ask your questions.

Rather than asking the users of a particular blank or component, you need to ask the chemist who brews up the batch of resin or epoxy that glues blank material together.
You need to speak to the manufacturer who designs and builds the fabric from which blanks are rolled.
You need to speak to the materials engineer who selects the materials and the production engineer who makes the guides through which the line runs.
You need to speak to the person who spins the fishing line that we all use on a daily basis in the pursuit of the wily fish that lurk beneath the waters.

But, all good questions - that may possibly be answered by some of the folks listed above.

Be safe

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 10:44AM

Phil Erickson:

" There are many of us who do not rely on marketing jargon in making our blank decisions, but instead rely on our years of experience with the manufacturers products"



Thats a "Bingo" for me.


Look at how many bought NFC's X RAY blanks compared to all the other great blank choices on the market , of course the price was the biggest motivator since they were on sale but just as much was their perceived reputation , expected performance potential & an individuals personal experience with Loomis blanks in the past . When you think of Loomis GLX you didn't need convincing that they were super high performance blanks , great products sell themselves .

In my opinion Phil lets the marketing side of things get to him too much and takes it way too seriously , newbie anglers often fall for marketing nonsense , veteran anglers rarely pay any mind to it .

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 02:45PM

For what it is worth, I have been trying to convey the way a POINT Blank fishes for almost 4 years with every conceivable measurement and photo I can come up with. In addition, I have even more information from the manufacturer. It becomes a pretty hefty dossier on every model and yet when someone purchases the blank (normally based on the "numbers" we can provide) and fishes it for the first time they generally get back in touch to make the comment that they have never felt anything like it. If they like it (and the vast majority do!) they tell others, but when the "others" ask how it fishes the comment eventually comes down to..."YOU'LL KNOW IT WHEN YOU FEEL IT". I suppose the lesson would be to narrow things down using generally accepted comparison methods (the numbers) but expect and understand that blanks that measure almost identical can feel VERY different. And don't be too hard on one man's MH being another man's H - there are a lot of ways to roll carbon fiber onto a metal stick!

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 03:44PM

Jim, that a very good analysis. It is very true that blanks having similar CCS number can have a different feel. Like I said you have to try it to know how it feels.
Norm

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 04:43PM

I have never heard anybody say " You will know when you feel it" about Point Blanks , what i hear is that they like it very much . I have also heard people say the NFC HM material is nowhere near as sensitive as the X RAY's and the differences are extremely apparent when comparing the two . As we all know that is just not going to work for Phil .


I think a meeting between Phil and Jim will be necessary as Phil will need more info on how much more distance can he expect ( Not ballpark figures either, Phil requires down to the exact millimeter ) when using Point Blank's proprietary technology like the (Focused Pulse technology, Equiradial Power Butt , Zero Scrim construction, Tape 2 , Dynamic Filament Bias & Progressive Modulus construction) will all that add up to say a 3 to 4 mm distance advantage or are we talking approx 11 to 14 mm difference in overall distance ? These are things that Phil is requesting before he opens the wallet and as he said repeatedly , Phil does not think it is asking too much to be provided with this info .


Jim, check your schedule and Phil you do the same .

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: March 01, 2019 05:06PM

With all respect, I know what I need in rod blanks and components.. That knowledge has cost me an unnecessary amount of money and second-rate finished rods. When new and presumably superior blanks and components come to market I will once again have to buy a bunch of mediocrity to get a gem. I don't need performance in millimeters, but I can't even find performance measured in YARDS! - And you can't either.

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: March 01, 2019 06:00PM

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With all respect, I know what I need in rod blanks
> and components.. That knowledge has cost me an
> unnecessary amount of money and second-rate
> finished rods. When new and presumably superior
> blanks and components come to market I will once
> again have to buy a bunch of mediocrity to get a
> gem. I don't need performance in millimeters, but
> I can't even find performance measured in YARDS! -
> And you can't either.



I thought you mentioned you wanted concrete & verifiable distance differences between blanks in yards, feet, inches & mill , my mistake then . So you have in fact bought finished rods in the past that you have not been happy with , it would be of great help if you can elaborate on those experiences like why do you feel you spent an unnecessary amount of money , did you buy online based on advertising lingo and found out it was not accurate ?


You say you will end up buying a lot of mediocrity before you end up with something you're happy with , that shouldn't be the case and if you explain what you mean by that it will help a great deal in finding a solution .

When you say i cannot come up with performance differences in yards either you're correct , i cannot . The reason i can't is because i understand that it is not something that is possible , i purchase blanks that have the performance characteristics that i'm looking for , i base that on my experiences in the past with items from the same manufacturer , i know before i even order the blank what kind of distance it's capable of and i know exactly how and what components are needed to achieve what i want . I am very familiar with marketing and what it's all about as i worked in that field in the past , my expectations of products are reasonable , i pay no mind to marketing lingo because 99% of it is just that , lingo, designed to entice customers to buy .

Newbies fall for that, veterans who have decades of experience should know better but it still does happen to even experienced folks which is unfortunate.

I buy blanks that i have been exceptionally pleased with in the past that fit my casting style and lived up to what my expectations were . I have also fished top blanks from other manufacturers and to be honest there is NOT a lot of difference .


Here's the bottom line , to this day there are NO top end blanks out there from any manufacturer that is going to be vastly superior to the best offerings of other manufacturers , they will all be quite close in overall performance with the differences being how you build them and what your personal preferences are . My favorite performing blanks aren't even being made anymore but i special order them anyway because to me nothing on todays market is as good .

Once you realize the difference between manufacturers are subtle at best you will realize that waiting around expecting a blank of the future to appear that will make every other rod obsolete is a complete waste of time , whatever one rod manufacturer comes up with is quickly found out by the others . Take the nano resin breakthrough years back , everybody has it and uses it now and they all refer to it a little differently for marketing purposes .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2019 06:15PM by herb canter.

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: March 01, 2019 06:42PM

Phil, you state that you know what need in rod blanks, and components. I'm curious how you came to discover those needs? Did it have anything to do with the way the rod .............. feels when you're using it? :o)

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Re: The physics of fish-rods
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: March 01, 2019 07:21PM

The same sort of objective, relative measurements taken on a bare blank can be taken on a finished rod.

.............

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