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In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Dennis Penton (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: February 22, 2019 10:06PM

Alright this my first attempt at a rod build and I may have bit off more than I can chew. The blank is a Rainshadow Immortal Inshore 7''6" (IMMP76MH) Mod. Fast.
The reel is a Shimano Stradic 4000 Ci4. The guides are Fuji KL-H purchased as a kit which includes a 25H, 12H, 7M, 5.5L, and (6) 5J. My issue is with the proper guide placement. Using the included Fuji Guide Spacing chart gives me completely different results than when I use the Angler's Resource Guide Placement Software, particularly when it comes to the placement of the stripper guide. The GPS recommends I place the 25H, 15.3 inches from the tip of the reel spool shaft, whereas the Guide Spacing Chart places it 19.75 inches from reel spool shaft. I feel that 15.3 in. is too close to the reel. It looks weird so close, so I wonder if I'm doing something wrong?
Also the kit comes with 4 running guides, but it seems that the GPS only allows for 3 reduction guides before getting to the choke point. So do I leave out one of the reduction guides, or use the smallest (5.5L) as the choke point guide? My understanding is that the choke point guide should be one of the micro running guides (5J)?

As you can see I'm confused and was hoping there might be an easier way to place these for optimum performance.

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Allan Gadia (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: February 22, 2019 11:20PM

I would start off with the GPS. The chart that came with the guides is just a generic chart for those guides. Using the GPS takes more factors into account such as the reel you are using and where it is on the blank.

Once you figure that out you can run some line through the guides and do a static deflection test, that will ultimately tell you if the guides are in the correct place.

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 12:27AM

I agree with Allen , redo the GPS measurements because it should recommend a 20 H , 10 H and a 5.5 M for the rod length and reel size you specified . If you're using heavier braid it the software will recommend a 25 H , 12 H , 5.5 M the guide kits confuse a lot of people because they come with guides that are not the most recommended by Fuji when using the Fuji KR GPS software .

You certainly can still use the guides that came in the kit because they will work but i would pay no mind to the spacing that the kit shows you because the overwhelming majority of users of the KR system follow Fuji's GPS software recommendations because it has proven to be exceptionally accurate .

Now , DO NOT worry about what Fuji's software tells you about the runners and how many and what size they should be , the GPS software excels at giving you incredibly accurate transition train information, the runners are absolute cake to figure out , just get the first 3 transition guides down and the choke in the vast majority of cases ( Especially with the rod length and reel specs you provided ) will be the 5.5 M .



[anglersresource.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2019 12:35AM by herb canter.

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 01:09AM

OK, i decided to try and make it even easier for Dennis so i took my 8 foot inshore rod out and went in search for my Shimano Stradic 4000 FK which i always pair it with . I built this gem last year using the KR GPS software . I use 10 pound 832 on it and i have tested and retested it to death and it's an incredible performer . Don't forget this is my personal build and your build will be different . Your blank is 6 inches shorter for one.


Handle length is 22 inches , from butt to top of spool .

Distance from spool settled at mid cycle to the stripper is 22 " that guide is a 20H , stripper to second transition is 8 7/8 " that guide is a 10H , second to third transition is 6 3/4 and that guide is a 5.5 M . Distance from the 5.5 M to the choke is 6 1/4 " that guide is a KB size 5 and i use KT size 5 guides spaced approx at 5 inch intervals out to the tip dependent on what the static tests showed me.

This rod is quite stiff and is not moderate by any means so the spacings fit the blanks characteristics very well .

Total guides on this 8 foot inshore rod rated at 1-3 was 9 guides NOT including the tip.

Hope this helps in some way , if not and your more confused than ever blame it on Norm even though he's at the EXPO and has nothing to do with it.

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (118.210.195.---)
Date: February 23, 2019 04:04AM

Denis, I to am a newbie and it can be very overwhelming. The Fuji anglers rsrc has some great info. I found some good stuff on the blog pages as well and the KR concept page was also helpful. But the good folks here helped to put all the puzzle pieces together. Good luck.
Scott

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Don Mang (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 05:35AM

I to am new to building! I have learned to keep a log of all concepts of building, on my computer. And I always search experienced builders such a Norm, and others.

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Dennis Penton (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 07:07AM

Wow. Thanks for the responses. Great info.
Questions to follow...

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Dennis Penton (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 07:16AM

herb canter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Allen , redo the GPS measurements
> because it should recommend a 20 H , 10 H and a
> 5.5 M for the rod length and reel size you
> specified . If you're using heavier braid it the
> software will recommend a 25 H , 12 H , 5.5 M the
> guide kits confuse a lot of people because they
> come with guides that are not the most recommended
> by Fuji when using the Fuji KR GPS software .
>
> You certainly can still use the guides that came
> in the kit because they will work but i would pay
> no mind to the spacing that the kit shows you
> because the overwhelming majority of users of the
> KR system follow Fuji's GPS software
> recommendations because it has proven to be
> exceptionally accurate .
>
> Now , DO NOT worry about what Fuji's software
> tells you about the runners and how many and what
> size they should be , the GPS software excels at
> giving you incredibly accurate transition train
> information, the runners are absolute cake to
> figure out , just get the first 3 transition
> guides down and the choke in the vast majority of
> cases ( Especially with the rod length and reel
> specs you provided ) will be the 5.5 M .
>
>
>
> [anglersresource.net]

Thanks for input hc. So do I eliminate the 7M reduction guide that came in the kit, and just go with the 25, 12, and 5.5? Sorry I didn't understand if you meant to use the 5.5 as the last reduction guide or the first running guide (at the choke point)? FYI, also the GPS places the #7 extremely close to the #12 guide. In fact the #7 doesn't show. It shows a #8. I wish I could post a pic of the results.

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Dennis Penton (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 07:38AM

Maybe this pic will help.
[www.flickr.com]

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Dennis Penton (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 09:04AM

I'm also thinking that this Shimano Stradic doesn't have much upsweep. I just started all over again and now my choke point is 66.2 inches. Last time it was 42.2 in.
With the 42.2 CP it brings the stripper to 15.3 inches from sport tip.
With the new 66.2 CP it brings the stripper to 25.1 inches.
Something's not right...

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 11:27AM

Dennis,
Start with the stripper guide at 19 inches from the face of the reel - mark the blank.
Then, just start at the tip and put a mark where the blank bends first when deflected by the tip. Then, another mark when it bends further into the deflection. Continue that way down the rod. You will be done marking the rod.

Then, tape the guides in place with the ring of the guide on the mark that you made on the blank or piece of tape you placed on the blank for the guide.

Put a reel into the reel seat, run line from the reel through the guides and you tip top. Then, I generally use the ceiling to deflect the rod. As you deflect the rod, keep your eyes on the line as you hold the line taunt. Verify, that the line follows the contour of the loaded blank, with no large gaps anywhere between the line and the loaded blank. If so - wrap the guides. If not tweak the guides and or add or remove a guide if not needed to keep the line flowing with the contour of the loaded rod blank.

This technique takes me about 5 minutes and it works perfectly on every rod that I do.

In addition, I will pull off about 20 feet of line and then, using my stocking foot to put pressure on the line, slowly reel the line back on the rod, checking for the action of the line against the stripper and first guide up the rod. I like to have my guild placement, guide size, and guide height on the stripper such, that as the line is retrieved on the reel, that the line tends to circle the entire 360 degrees of the stripper guide. I do not want the line pulling off just the bottom, just the top, or just the sides of the stripper guide. I have found that by having the guide train set up this way, the rod will perform at its best - both on cast and line retrieve.

But, as others have said; with a particular reel, line, and rod blank record all of your final measurements and guide type, brand, and sizes. This will give you a nice recipe to be able to quickly repeat the build if the opportunity presents itself.

Take care

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: February 23, 2019 01:07PM

I believe the KL-H guides are meant to be used with the KR GPS. The screenshot you posted is from the NGC GPS.

When you go onto the Angler's Resource page, look at the column on the left. 8th link down. KR GPS. Punch your numbers into that and all of your worries will go away. The KR concept is amazing. IMO worlds better than an NGC guide train.

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Dennis Penton (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 01:45PM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe the KL-H guides are meant to be used
> with the KR GPS. The screenshot you posted is from
> the NGC GPS.
>
> When you go onto the Angler's Resource page, look
> at the column on the left. 8th link down. KR GPS.
> Punch your numbers into that and all of your
> worries will go away. The KR concept is amazing.
> IMO worlds better than an NGC guide train.


Ok I found and it seems a lot simpler, BUT I got stuck on whether I'm doing a conventional build or a micro build? Also the reduction guides it's recommending are 20H, 10H, and 6L. The kit I bought comes with 25H, 12H, 7M and 5.5L. How do I accommodate for these? Not only that, the program only calls for 3 reduction guides, but I have 4. Do I get rid of one? The 7M?

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 05:12PM

I would set it up using the 5.5 as the choke (1st runner) and go from there then you'll only have 3 reduction guides. And I agree with Herb 100% , let's blame Norm, cause he's at the expo and we're not! I think anything below size 5 are considered micro. run the software both ways and see how much it differs.

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Dennis Penton (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: February 23, 2019 05:30PM

You guys are class acts. Thanks for taking the time to help this ole goat.

So do I still position my larger guides on the blank in the same location the software recommends, or do I make slight adjustments?

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Norman Miller (12.170.14.---)
Date: February 23, 2019 06:03PM

If you are doing a KR concept spin rod use the KR concept GPS. The other GPS at Anglers Resource is for the NGC and should not be used with KL-H guides. Mudhole KL-H Kits are poorly put together, and their guide placement chart is not very good. For your next rod don’t use their KR guide kit, they are trying to turn the KR concept into a NGC. Lynn is correct for the kit you have use the 5.5L as your choke guide, and you will be fine.
Norm

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Re: In over my head? Need advice.
Posted by: Norman Miller (12.170.14.---)
Date: February 23, 2019 10:22PM

For your reel and rod, the KR GPS places the KL25H stripper at 21” from the spool, and the KL5.5L choke guide guide 23” in front of the stripper. Progressively place the other two reduction guides between them. Then place your running guides progressively between the choke and the tip top. There is no problem In moving the choke guide in or out a little bit to get a good looking guide train. Static test and test cast and you should be good to go
Norm

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