Thanks Herb.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2019 01:23PM by Tom Harder.

Thanks Norman



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2019 01:14PM by Tom Harder.

Alright, thanks Norman



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2019 01:21PM by Tom Harder.

You are cutting yourself short by not trying a KR concept. The KR concept guides are the KL high frame guides for the reduction train and the KB/KT guides for the runners.The minima4 M and F guides are PacBay guides, and make a very suitable option for building a very light KR- like concept rod, and they are very inexpensive. I have been building rods for just about 50 yrs and the KR concept is the best I've ever used and I have used them all. Did you look at the KR GPS, at Anglers Resource. [anglersresource.net]
Norm

Yep, I have. It's great..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2019 01:21PM by Tom Harder.

You have gone above and beyond Tom in trying to help , i'm sure the OP appreciates all the info you provided from your fabulous Walleye rods. Recoil guides were the guides high end manufacturers were equipping their highest priced inshore and freshwater models with in the past but not lately , they have fallen out of favor quite a few years back mostly due to the complaints about how loud they were . It's great that you provided info anyway because the OP did want that .

Custom rod builders have taken a strong liking to the Fuji KR concept and the PB high frame Minima guides . Imo you can't get better than the Fuji titanium torzite guides in the KR concept style , feather light and the slickest ring surface available today but much more expensive than the PB Minima's . As i said size 6 rings for that rod with a Stradic 1000 and 8 pound braid are much larger than necessary , 30 pound braid rockets through size 6 guides with no issues whatsoever on the Stradic 5000 FK , he's using a 1000 size with 8 pound .

The OP wanted opinions on what would make the most sensitive setup while still casting well enough , he got way more than that , he was informed about not only what would make the lightest most sensitive setup he was also informed on what guide type and most efficient system to follow is including the links on achieving that .

Hopefully the OP will chime in soon but he should be good to go , he will choose what he thinks is best regardless of all the great info provided by all the contributors , as we all know some just disregard all the info completely and do the opposite lol.

To each their own as they say .

Okay, thanks Herb.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2019 01:23PM by Tom Harder.

Okay, thanks Herb!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2019 01:22PM by Tom Harder.

Tom Harder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay, thanks Herb. Sorry, didn't mean to offend.
> I'll buy the Fuji KR's and put them on my builds.
> They are very nice indeed.


TOM, WAIT A MINUTE !!!! You're NOT the OP , you have been providing advice not asking for advice , you rods are perfect, HANDS OFF !!!

Okay...doing it the "Herb" way for 9 Fuji KL-H Series Titanium Torzite guides (including tip top) costs, hmm, $170 bucks with shipping for the average Joe. Right Herb? (I'm glad I buy wholesale) I guess their cost makes them the best, right Herb? Recoils are too noisy, huh? The other inserts are just too heavy and too much mass in my view (I've used the SIC's 100's of times so I'm aware of the weight differential, well, not Alconite, I won't use them, inferior), especially when compared to Recoils. Also, a 16 is too small for the butt guide. I ordered a set to put on a North Fork DS 721-1 X-Ray. Thank God, I now know how to do this. I'm going to stock up. To outfit just 10 rod blanks will cost in excess of $1,000 bucks wholesale. I'll be charging my clients the MSRP on them so one rod will be around $170 bucks just for guides. Isn't that special! I guess I'll have to bone up on the RodMaker Magazine article "Justify the Price" in the latest edition.

They're still priced ridiculously!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2019 04:10PM by Tom Harder.

I love the Fuji KLH guides and have built both 16 mm stripper and 20. Both work with the lines recommended for them. I have settled on the 20 because I see no advantage in the 16 for anything and the 20 is more versatile allowing heavier lines and bigger reels if you change your mind. I use 20h, 10h, and 5.5m for the reduction train, 5's for the runners. I really don't understand what "way overkill" means when discussing a one size difference. If discussing a 30 vs a 16, I'd get it. I would check to see if 7 guides + tiptop look good on the stress test. No problem with 8.

I don't use recoil guides because of the noise.
I never build a spinning rod with a butt guide smaller than size 20.
You really need no more then three, and even 2 reduction guides from a spinning reel before you go to running guides.

6,5, or 4.5 runners all work fine for the rod you are building. I would likely go with 20,16,10 to the runners. Or 20,12, 8 to the runners.

Best wishes.

Thanks Norman. Email is now unhidden. Love this post

Tom Harder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay...doing it the "Herb" way for 9 Fuji KL-H
> Series Titanium Torzite guides (including tip top)
> costs, hmm, $170 bucks with shipping for the
> average Joe. Right Herb? (I'm glad I buy
> wholesale) I guess their cost makes them the best,
> right Herb? Recoils are too noisy, huh? The other
> inserts are just too heavy and too much mass in my
> view (I've used the SIC's 100's of times so I'm
> aware of the weight differential, well, not
> Alconite, I won't use them, inferior), especially
> when compared to Recoils. Also, a 16 is too small
> for the butt guide. I ordered a set to put on a
> North Fork DS 721-1 X-Ray. Thank God, I now know
> how to do this. I'm going to stock up. To outfit
> just 10 rod blanks will cost in excess of $1,000
> bucks wholesale. I'll be charging my clients the
> MSRP on them so one rod will be around $170 bucks
> just for guides. Isn't that special! I guess I'll
> have to bone up on the RodMaker Magazine article
> "Justify the Price" in the latest edition.
>
> They're still priced ridiculously!



Tom , i have " No specific way " , all i do is tell the person who has requested very specific information based on reel size , line type and size what the best possible choices are based on my specific testing and research . For a SC V blank in the 6'3 length using a stradic 1000 size reel and 8 pound 832 a KL-H 16 is the best most efficient choice to use as a stripper . Sure a 20 will work well but the OP specifically asked for the most sensitive best casting rod setup available and a KL-H 16 is slightly more efficient than the KL-H 20 for two reasons , it matches up much more precisely with the Stradic 1000 size spool diameter because of it's slightly smaller ring diameter, the guide (HEIGHT) matches up perfectly with the stradic 1000 and for the best possible performance with the least energy wasted the ring size diameter must be no larger than absolutely necessary based on the line diameter being fished .

If you add the height together with the reel size and line diameter the best possible stripper is the KL-H 16 NOT the KL-H 20 , the KL-H 16 not only matches up more precisely with his reel and line choice it's also lighter in overall weight .

While most will not be able to detect the difference between a KL-H 16 vs a KLH 20 there IS a difference nonetheless , remember the OP asked for the best possible match and thats it however, IF the OP wanted to use different reels and said he may want to use different lines a KL-H 20 or 25 would clearly be the better choice but he made clear this rod is a very specific rod to be used strictly for Walleye with the reel and line size mentioned.

Don't forget Tom , this has nothing to do with you , remember you're NOT the OP ( Original Poster) you said your Walleye rods are the best and they very well may be so why you are going after me about price is beyond me . Your opinion was that recoils are the best and thats fine , my opinion was that i think Fuji's titanium torzite's are the best but it's just opinions.

The price of things was NEVER a factor in this discussion , price was not brought up . You're correct though that titanium torzites are ridiculously priced.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2019 06:00PM by herb canter.

Sometimes an OP may not know the advantages and disadvantages of the answers given. Or the constraints implied in his question. So I try to provide them. Most will be able to tell the difference between the 16 and the 20 if they switch to 20 pound braid or a bigger reel.

Bob McKamey's son Hunter almost 10 years ago built a smallmouth rod that lost nothing to an identical conventional spinning build. He used a #10 tall frame Y, #8V frame, #6 fly, than #3 micros to the tip. Lost nothing with braid, in fact work much better, lost nothing with appropriate mono either. Info is in the search function.

Sounds like choices in guides , guide types, guide sizes, reel sizes, reel types , line types , line diameters etc... can be tossed right out the window folks , Bob's son proved it's all irrelevant .

When it comes to custom rod building keep a open mind. We live by the ol saying - "There Is More Than One Way To Skin A Cat"!! Don't get stuck in the same old rut of building. Try new things and don't be afraid to experiment!! Thank You Spencer & Herb For Your Support!!

Bob McKamey
Mud Hole Custom Tackle
bobm@mudhole.com

I seen examples of European match rods back 35 years ago where the spinning rods for 2 to 4 kg lines had double foot match guides starting at 10 mm and ending with many 4 mm guides. Still have a 3 pc. 12 footer that casts into next week with light braid or 8 lb or lighter mono on a 2000 size Shimano.

I'm sold. All 10's for strippers from now on. Fits in a rod tube better, too.

Seriously now, I was advocating that lines had to be taken into account a very long time ago. And very few were listening, it was 27X , stripper twice the spool diameter, etc without regard for line characteristics. Sounds like a few were ahead of me (and most others on this forum). I do appreciate the scientific approaches of AmTak and Fuji . And likely would the tests run and shown in Rodmaker, but I don't recall seeing them. They would be objective, for sure. While I'm not doubting that rods mentioned cast well, I instinctively am skeptical about terms like "casting into next week," what is "appropriate braid," "losing nothing to a conventional identical rod," what is "appropriate mono," etc.

I'm sure we've confused Tom Harder completely by now. Good luck, Tom.