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Novice builder question?
Posted by: Brett DeNicola (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: December 24, 2018 07:52AM

Hi guys new to the board. Just completed my second build and have a question about it being like way lighter power now when compared to the blank. I bought two of the blanks so I can really see the difference from the blank. The blank was CRB 661m 14-18 I only bought because it was like 75% from mudhole and the guides I used were the crb sv style ones. I only used these because I was planning to make a 9' surf rod for my dad for Christmas I cheaped out on the clearance guides and blank because he doesn't fish much and uses mono oh yea and I have no money. I had ordered too small of reel seats and just decided to make the 661m instead because I had everything and it seemed like the guides would be ok because he uses mono. I was happy with the build until I put a bend in it after 2nd coat of finish and it is way lighter power than the blank. Seems strong for a blank I got for $6 had my wife hold tip and I set it hard bent all through the handle but seems solid. Just wondering what in the build lightened it up. Df guides, underwrap, weight of the guides as I went larger to use mono, all of the above? Was planning on it being a lighter boat rod for <5-6oz but now idk if It could effectively fish >3. Thanks

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: December 24, 2018 08:09AM

Everything you add to a rod - seat, grips, guides, thread and finish, is weight that the blank has to carry. For this reason it can be very important to build the rod as light as possible in order to retain as much of the blank's original characteristics as possible.

Funny thing - for many years some builders thought wrapping heavier and stiffer guides on a rod blank made the blank stiffer. Of course, it was just the opposite.

..............

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (---.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: December 24, 2018 08:13AM

Brett
Do a comparison static test with the inbuilt and built blanks.
Unless you used some very heavy guides and tip-top - they should flex about the same. What you are probably experiencing is the difference between a built and un-built blank when you "wiggle" it. That is a result of the weight of the components influencing the blank as you cast.
As a builder, you have to anticipate that. That is the reason they invented titanium guides.
Herb

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: herb canter (77.111.246.---)
Date: December 24, 2018 09:52AM

Herb Ladenheim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brett
> Do a comparison static test with the inbuilt and
> built blanks.
> Unless you used some very heavy guides and tip-top
> - they should flex about the same. What you are
> probably experiencing is the difference between a
> built and un-built blank when you "wiggle" it.
> That is a result of the weight of the components
> influencing the blank as you cast.
> As a builder, you have to anticipate that. That
> is the reason they invented titanium guides.
> Herb




Yup , " Weight" is what it comes down to as said by Tom and Herb above .



I chuckled when i read Fuji's choice of wording when they came out with their corrosion resistant guides , if i remember correctly something like " Get the benefits of titanium at the stainless steel price " or something along those lines . I choose titanium guides because they're incredibly lightweight , the fact that they happen to be corrosion resistant is a complete non factor to me .


I keep my guide wraps as short as humanly possible , choose guides with the smallest ring i can get away with and avoid all decorative types of wraps like the plague , the end result, as you know, is a rod that retains as much of it's performance characteristics as possible due to the weight saving measures taken while building it .


Imo, most builders tend to build much more aesthetically pleasing creations and i attribute that to the customers that come to them with specific requests which dictate that, after all pleasing the customer is what it's all about for many who build rods for a living.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Brett DeNicola (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: December 24, 2018 10:08AM

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everything you add to a rod - seat, grips, guides,
> thread and finish, is weight that the blank has to
> carry. For this reason it can be very important to
> build the rod as light as possible in order to
> retain as much of the blank's original
> characteristics as possible.
>
> Funny thing - for many years some builders thought
> wrapping heavier and stiffer guides on a rod blank
> made the blank stiffer. Of course, it was just the
> opposite.
>
> ..............yea I was kind of under that assumption as well thinking the df guides would stiffen it up. I am still happy with the build despite not being the guides I would have used if I had planned on building that blank but just not sure if it's going to get much use not sure how it will handle bouncing 3+ oz and my dad doesn't do any casting or plugging thanks for the info

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: December 24, 2018 10:23AM

"Weight" is the scientific reason for loss of power, but only if you believe in science. It should be possible to build guides with strong, rigid, corrosion-proof polymer guide frames with very thin ceramic inserts for considerable weight savings, but I doubt they would sell - even though football players wear polymer helmets.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: December 24, 2018 01:30PM

Brett,
In a word - just give it a go, as is often stated.

Take the rod and go fishing. Catch a bunch of fish on this lighter rod and I expect that you will find that it works out just fine for you.

Best wishes

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 24, 2018 05:55PM

I agree with Roger. Chalk it up as a learning experience. Give it to your Dad and let him use it as he sees fit. The most important thing is you made it for him.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: December 24, 2018 06:27PM

I would appreciate it if someone can explain how adding guides to a blank can change the power of the blank. I get sensitivity, and maybe action, if guide placement is way off, but don't get power.

Herb, Fuji was clearly talking about corrosion, not weight.

I don't mean to be a pain, but I just don't think the posts are adequately addressing this new builders concerns. IMHO, no, your build did not affect the power of the blank. What does he do differently to prevent disappointment in his next build? What did he do wrong? But he has some responsibility in this too. /We don't even know what guides and components he used. His evaluations are in no way objective so what is he using to conclude the build is faulty? It may not be faulty at all. Does the builder know the difference between power and action? Lots of answers to questions based on very incomplete information.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 24, 2018 09:21PM

Michael, first of all, excellent post. In my opinion he has a great deal of reading to do. Love the Fuji part.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: herb canter (77.111.246.---)
Date: December 25, 2018 08:15AM

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would appreciate it if someone can explain how
> adding guides to a blank can change the power of
> the blank. I get sensitivity, and maybe action,
> if guide placement is way off, but don't get
> power.
>
> Herb, Fuji was clearly talking about corrosion,
> not weight.
>
> I don't mean to be a pain, but I just don't think
> the posts are adequately addressing this new
> builders concerns. IMHO, no, your build did not
> affect the power of the blank. What does he do
> differently to prevent disappointment in his next
> build? What did he do wrong? But he has some
> responsibility in this too. /We don't even know
> what guides and components he used. His
> evaluations are in no way objective so what is he
> using to conclude the build is faulty? It may not
> be faulty at all. Does the builder know the
> difference between power and action? Lots of
> answers to questions based on very incomplete
> information.


Thanks for pointing out the obvious Michael , my point was that i found Fuji's specific wording of enhanced performance of CC guides interesting instead of Fuji saying something along the lines of " The new CC frames provide corrosion resistance on par with titanium framed guides" , it's not a big deal if you feel differently about it , to each their own .

Now on to your main objections :


"I just don't think the posts are adequately addressing this new builders concerns"


Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and you have made what yours is loud and clear .


"What does he do differently to prevent disappointment in his next build? What did he do wrong"

He would ask questions on this forum BEFORE PURCHASING the blank and components to make sure that what he is about to buy would fit the specific end result he is looking to obtain thats what he would do to avoid disappointment . Assuming and guessing is never a good idea Michael you know that .


OP: I cheaped out on the clearance guides and blank because he doesn't fish much and uses mono oh yea and I have no money. I had ordered too small of reel seats.


The OP just needs to take it slower and ask more questions beforehand which will result in the correct type of blank and reel seat thats all , i think the OP got the picture , the answers may have not satisfied you but i think the OP gets it but then again maybe not.

A Merry Merry Christmas to all .

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 25, 2018 06:29PM

Herb, please take no offense, but I don't think novice builder and titanium guides belong in the same conversation.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: herb canter (77.111.246.---)
Date: December 25, 2018 08:22PM

No offense taken Lynn , the only reason i brought up titanium guides was in response to Herb, ( The other Herb ) but after re reading my post again i missed on a lot of points so apologies to all .

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 25, 2018 09:00PM

Thanks Herb, (this Herb) if the O.P. had spent some time here before starting the build we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, he may not have discovered the site before he began. If he did , bad on him. His lack of funds certainly didn't help. I've been guilty of using less than optimum components at times (on my own stuff) for the same reason.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/25/2018 09:05PM by Lynn Behler.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: herb canter (77.111.246.---)
Date: December 25, 2018 09:33PM

I probably hold the record for the number of times i have screwed things up from not thinking things through before jumping in head first , if you learn from your mistakes than it's not a bad thing and most people do learn , just part of being human .

This site is a God send for rod builders and people mulling over trying rod building for the first time . Nobody should ever feel that a question they have is not worthy or they will be made fun of for asking it , i know i'm guilty of coming across more harshly than what was intended and it's due to being a little frustrated with mistakes that could have been prevented by just asking .


Good people and exceptionally knowledgeable people on this site willing to share their expertise , i asked for help when i joined up and was blown away by the responses and assistance that was offered to me , i am forever grateful and will always remember it . To this day i often shake my head in amazement at the knowledge people possess on this board , always something to learn.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 26, 2018 05:59PM

Brett must be thinking "jeez, all I did was ask a question!" Hang in there kid, we're all in this together.

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Re: Novice builder question?
Posted by: Brett DeNicola (---.sub-174-225-0.myvzw.com)
Date: January 15, 2019 01:51PM

Hey guys thanks for the replies didn't mean to ghost first time back on. I know what went wrong with the build I used too large and heavy of guides for the build. I used crb guides that are knockoffs of the Fuji df sv guides that I had planned for a 9ft surf rod for use with mono. The reel seats were too small for that blank so I just built the sv's on a ML 6'6" rated 14-18lb( I had everything for this blank and it was like 3 days before Christmas just wanted to get something built and I thought they would be ok because he uses mono not braid). I think the line rating of 14-18 was accurate for the blank and now the built rod seems like 6-12lb would be accurate.

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