Just wanted to let people know that high frame KL-H single foot guides are " Off the charts" amazing on surf setups that are more finesse based vs durability based . I have built surf rods with the double foot K's , single foot KL's , double foot LC's and double foot RV's and imo the KL-H single foot's are not only the lightest but best performing guides i have ever used .


I'm using them on a CTS eleven foot S8 blank with a Shimano Aero Technium . Following the KR GPS recommendations of spacing doesn't work well for a spool of this diameter even with the KL-H 25 at twenty plus inches for the stripper is just way too close for a reel with this size spool as noticeable bunching up at the first guide kills performance .

I attribute that happening to the height of the KL-H 25 which is right around 55 mm , to be in line with the spool shaft the guide would need to be about 63 mm in height . I know Fuji offers the KL 30 and KW 30 & 40 in heights of about 60 mm but those rings sizes are too big for me and are totally unnecessary for the size braid i fish with, ( Very light) .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2018 11:17PM by Tom Kirkman.

I have to admit I have not made a surf rod since the KR concept has been out. With that being said, since the KL25H is the same height as the RV 25, and the RV 25 is routinely used on surf rods it seems to me you should be able to use the KL25H. I don’t know the size of your reel, but for larger reels in order to get a nice straight line from the spool to the stripper just push the stripper further out, say 25” to 28”. I know that the Fuji KR GPS calculates the reduction train length by multiplying the distance from the stripper to the tip by a factor of about 0.42, so your reduction train would be somewhere around 36”. However, you can also use a reduction train length approximately the same length as the stripper to spool length. So experiment with a reduction train length from about 27 to 36”. Hope this makes sense, but that is how I would start.
Norm

Sorry, dbl post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2018 11:22PM by Norman Miller.

Herb,

No politics nor religion here. Thanks.

..............

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to admit I have not made a surf rod since
> the KR concept has been out. With that being said,
> since the KL25H is the same height as the RV 25,
> and the RV 25 is routinely used on surf rods it
> seems to me you should be able to use the KL25H. I
> don’t know the size of your reel, but for larger
> reels in order to get a nice straight line from
> the spool to the stripper just push the stripper
> further out, say 25” to 28”. I know that the
> Fuji KR GPS calculates the reduction train length
> by multiplying the distance from the stripper to
> the tip by a factor of about 0.42, so your
> reduction train would be somewhere around 36”.
> However, you can also use a reduction train length
> approximately the same length as the stripper to
> spool length. So experiment with a reduction train
> length from about 27 to 36”. Hope this makes
> sense, but that is how I would start.
> Norm


Why would i change from the KL-H 25 to a KL 25 , the KL 25 H is not as tall . The spool diameter is huge 76 mm . My post was just to let everyone know that KL-H guides can be used outside of the KR setup guidelines very successfully since there is so many different heights and ring sizes to choose from .

Where i test cast is on one side of a very wide section of the Intracoastal waterway and all previous results over the years were always about 3/4 of the way across the waterway . Well everything changed with this guide setup , my jaw hit the ground when every cast completely cleared the entire waterway i freaked out lol. It is just a 3 guide reduction train , a KL-H 25 - KL-H 10M -- 5.5M are the three reduction train guides i chose and i'm using KT 5 's as runners . Stripper is set way out at 34" , total reduction guide length is 35"

Remember, this reel has a very large spool 76 mm .


Apologize to Tom about the politics.

Herb, I did say 25 KL-H by using the term KL25H, means exactly the same thing. It is still a KR set up even though the stripper is pushed farther out, you are still using high frame small ring guides for the reduction train and small low profile guides as runners, and you are doing a rapid choke. What I was trying to do was to give a little extra insight into how one would start to set up a surf rod KR train without having done one before. The KRGPS does not list large reels, so it is semi-useless for getting stripper distances for surf rods. One should realize that for a given stripper height, the larger the reel the further out one pushes the stripper. A point I was trying to make was that there are two very good ways for dertermining the reduction train length. One is to measure the distance from the stripper to the tip and multiply it by .42. The second is to use approximately the same distance as the spool to the stripper distance. None of these distances are written in stone, but they give a good starting point from which you can test for performance. I did not know they made a KL10M are you sure you are not using a KL10H or KL12H? There is a lot of leeway in setting up a KR guide train, and braid is very forgiving. One thing for certain, a KR guide train performs extremely well. One of the reasons I use it.
Norm

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herb, I did say 25 KL-H by using the term KL25H,
> means exactly the same thing. It is still a KR
> set up even though the stripper is pushed farther
> out, you are still using high frame small ring
> guides for the reduction train and small low
> profile guides as runners, and you are doing a
> rapid choke. What I was trying to do was to give a
> little extra insight into how one would start to
> set up a surf rod KR train without having done one
> before. The KRGPS does not list large reels, so it
> is semi-useless for getting stripper distances for
> surf rods. One should realize that for a given
> stripper height, the larger the reel the further
> out one pushes the stripper. A point I was trying
> to make was that there are two very good ways for
> dertermining the reduction train length. One is to
> measure the distance from the stripper to the tip
> and multiply it by .42. The second is to use
> approximately the same distance as the spool to
> the stripper distance. None of these distances are
> written in stone, but they give a good starting
> point from which you can test for performance. I
> did not know they made a KL10M are you sure you
> are not using a KL10H or KL12H? There is a lot of
> leeway in setting up a KR guide train, and braid
> is very forgiving. One thing for certain, a KR
> guide train performs extremely well. One of the
> reasons I use it.
> Norm


You are correct Norm it's a KL 10 H not an M my mistake . Thanks for the input always appreciated. Yes, the KR GPS doesn't come close to giving layout info on my reel since it's very large in spool diameter and the results it did show typing in the largest spool diameter it offers which is a 5000 size spool show a distance of around 21 " for the stripper location which turned out to be way too close .

That location is ideal for my smaller inshore reels ( A stradic FK 5000) but not a spool diameter double that size.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2018 01:29PM by herb canter.

Fuji would recommend defaulting back to an NGC layout for a surf rod but I gotta say - a LOT of surf rod builders are successfully applying the KR principals to larger rods with stories similar to yours, Herb.

I built my last 12 foot surf rod using the NGC and it was a solid performer but it was missing that "Cannon blast" type performance i was used to in the past . This new one with the KL-H guides is out of this world amazing with explosive performance .

I am thinking about replacing the guides on an 20-year-old 10' St. Croix factory-built surf blank. There is nothing wrong with them but I look for maximum performance. All else being the same, how much measurable improvement can I expect from any make, model, or priced replacement guide train? 15%? 10%?

It's all about the line choice Phil , what type of line and what test determines guide and spacing for me and to a lesser extent spool diameter . I noticed a very dramatic improvement in performance by choosing smaller ring sizes at the proper heights and i have fished the surf for over 20 years using 12 pound mono then when braid came out i have always much preferred 14 pound and below . The 14 pound has an actually breaking strength very close to 35 pounds than 14 as it's listed .

I have always found heavier braid to be completely unnecessary and a real performance killer so i never use it but to each their own. If you're the type that doesn't fish heavy braid the performance advantages can be dramatic even up to 20 pound braid which is still thin enough to see a very obvious performance increase compared to spooling up with 40 - 50 pound.

I decided to go with a size 30 stripper on my last build and used the same reel and line on that build also and the performance was not near as impressive as it is with this new one , smaller rings at the proper height give a very dramatic performance boost the key is too find what size will work with your specific line choice and reel specifics .

This build over my last one i would say clearly at least a 20% improvement and the last one was built correctly the difference was the last one used larger ring sizes but all were at the proper height .

I forgot to mention This is a bait fishing rod and I use a conventional reel on it, a Slosh-30 loaded with a 150 yard #20 mono topshot knotted to a couple hundred yards of #20 braid backing. I find a conventional reel a better tool than a spinning reel for fishing and fighting fish in the surf here in Florida.

"This is a bait fishing rod and I use a conventional reel on it"




I see ...........well that certainly throws a wrench into everything i said in my previous post , i'm going to have refer your question to someone who has experience with conventional reels as i do not .


Apologies