Greetings Everyone.

I thought I had read this in the past or posted a question a few years back but can't find it. Apologies if this has been asked before but I can't find it.

Most of my builds are for ultralight with 2-4 lbs monofilament or fluorocarbon using Daiwa or Shimano size 1000 reels and casting 1/64th to 1/32th oz minijigs on 7' UL blanks. (This is a common setup for trout in California.)

The single paramount goal - maximum casting distance for these super light minijigs.

Up to this point, I've built with a size 20 stripper. Usually the Fuji singlefoot TATSG. (Titanium, SIC). To get more height on the right, U straighten the feet and rebend it for a shorter feet and taller ring. Works well and given 2-4 lbs test, no problem with strain on the shorter feet.

However, Fuji is suggesting a size 16 Stripper instead. I can get the right height by using the taller KR guides. (Edit - yes, these are the "H" version - tall single foot. Thanks for bringing that up.)

Questions:

1. Would the size 16 Stripper really not reduce casting distance for my parameters? (As an experiment, I tried a 12 once and it did reduce casting distance substantially.)

2. And should I move the 16 stripper slightly further away from the reel as compared to size 20 stripper? (I saw a video from Anglersresource that seem to suggest this) I would not mind a suggested distance from reel to stripper.

3. Rummaging through my pile of stuff, I see that I have a set of Fuji guide T-KLTG 16, 8, and then a T-KTTG in 5.5, and then down to 4s. I don't even remember ordering this but someone must have suggested that as a set a few years back. Would this be the 'perfect' setup for the parameters I mentioned?

Thanks in advance for all your expert help. :)

Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2018 10:23PM by Mo Yang.

Your KL 16 and 8 are not KLH? I think that KLH's with a 5.5M would work. I use that combo for 10 # braid.

But I recommend you try your K guides and see. Do the Fuji GPS, making sure you get the right GPS for your guides. Then move the whole set of reduction guides together an inch or two either way to find the sweet spot.

For a given ring size the AT guides are are very similar in height to Y guides. The KLH guides for a given ring size are taller than either the AT or Y guides. So a KL16H is the same height as an AT20. If you want want to use KR concept build for you 7’ UL rod then you would use a reduction train consisting of KL16H, KL8H, and KL5.5M, followed by KB/KT4.5 or 4 runners. The KL16H stripper would be placed 19” in front of the reel spool and the choke guide (KB4.5 or 4) at about 21” or so in front of the stripper. I position the other two reduction guides between them, and place the runners progressively between the tiptop and choke guide. I will move the choke out or in a little to get good progressive spacing. This set up will cast smooth, quiet and far. Try you will like it. Using titanium guides you will pay more but will get a very light setup. You can do exactly the same thing using PacBay Minima M guides for the reduction train and Minima F guides in the same sizes. The Minima guides in the black titanium frames are also extremely light.
PS - As Michael noted above, KL guides are not the same as KLH guides.
Hope this helps.
Norm

Mo, this might help: [anglersresource.net]

Thanks everyone for the comments. Yes, these are the "H" guides - corrected my first post.

Norman, thanks in particular for your specific advice. And yes, the Kl16H is same eight as the AT20. So the 16 won't reduce casting distance? And possibly increase distance?

Happy to hear more comments.

Thanks again!!

There's always one way to find out - set up both arrangements and try them.

...........

x10 on Mr. Kirkmans comments.

Every rod, every use, every situation is different.

To be sure about your particular build, take a given set of guides and then vary the one thing that you have the question about.

i.e. if you want to use a stripper of a different size, tie on your normal stripper guide and do a bunch of test casts using an appropriate weight and the reel that you are going to use with the rod.

Then, remove that guide and tie on a different sized stripper of your choice.

Repeat the test casts and record the results.

If you want to change the location of the stripper, on a 3rd test, cut off the guide and relocate the guide and again repeat the test.

Then, you will have positive test results for your exact setup to know personally the exact results for your setup.

Also, when doing these tests, also look for line slap and or any other negative things of any sort about any of your setups when doing the casting results.

Even with light line, I personally do not like to use a stripper guide on a spinning rod that is smaller than size 20.

One of the biggest issues that I have with smaller guides is no only shorter casting distance, but also issues with line slap on the rod.

----------------
p.s.
Another thing that I learned a very long time ago from one of my rod clients was to examine the line path and guide contact as the line is retrieved with light line pressure on the line.
Especially with a spinning rod and reel, I look for the line path during the retrieve of the line to essentially touch the full 360 degrees of inner ring contact on the stripper guide as the line is reeled in. i.e. if the line only touches on the top side of the guide, the guide is too small or too short. Conversely, if the line only touches n the bottom of the guide, the guide is too close, or too tall. If the line is making a bend as it goes through the stripper guide, the stripper guide is too small. i.e. I like the line to flow smoothly through the stripper guide barely brushing, but brushing the full 360 degrees of inner guide face as the line is reeled onto the reel under light line pressure.

Be safe

I am a researcher at heart, and when the KR concept first came out I had to try it. The very first cast I made with my KR concept spinning rod I was hooked, and have not looked back. It gives a very light and responsive rod that casts smooth quiet and far. The KL16H stripper works extremely welll with 1000 to 2500 sized reels with light line. It’s not the guides ring size that’s important it,s the guide’s height. If you have not tried the KR concept give it a try you will not be disappointed. For those who have not tried it, don’t knock it until you do your own research.
Norm

Norman,
What every the guide sizing concept that one uses; I agree 100% that the height of the guides being used on the rod are of the upmost importance.

Good luck

High frame small ring guides are not a new thing, they have been around for a long time. They were called Match guides, which for a given ring size are very similar in height to new Fuji KL-H guides, and are very popular in Europe for use on Match rods. At one time Fuji match guides were sold here in the US, and PacBay still sells them here. The Fuji KL-H guides are basically a match guide that is uniquely designed as a tangle free guide (K) with a very strong frame. Just to give an illustration as to the height of a KL-H guide, a KL12H is almost as tall as an LV20 or SV20 guide. So if you used a size 20V guide as a stripper you could use KL12H in its place!
Norm

Mo,
Building a spinning rod to cast 1/64 jig heads is a truly admirable feat.
I've been attempting to build an ultra light spinning rod for years, but haven't been able to get below 1/40 ounce.
Would you be willing to share your recipe ????
If the answer is "no" I will understand.
I don't see how you can get enough energy from a 1/64 ounce jig head to peel line from a 4# test spinning reel spool.
I've tried and only been able to achieve 1/40 ounce with 2# test and less.
If you have the answer I can understand why you are concerned over your guide train when certain styles become unavailable or discontinued.

Thanks,
Gene

Greetings Eugene,

Absolutely. Glad to share. NO secrets - this forum has been so helpful through the years that anything I can contribute is a privilege. (Best forum online anywhere in my opinion.)

However, there is no great secret whatsoever.

A few thoughts.

1. I don't personally fish 1/64th but have fished with a friend who does.

2. 1/64th - used exclusively with 2# test. Probably the furthest casting distance is with nanofil line though 2lbs mono or fluoro still works.

3. A size 1000 reel and not 500 if used with mono or fluoro - my opinion. Less coils which impacts casting distance negatively.

4. The casting motion is violently quick. The first time I fished with someone using 1/64th, I learned that my casting speed, which I thought was good, was not nearly as quick as some guys can cast. This friend's cast is an absolute 'snap'!

5. At that light a minijig, I believe that a somewhat heavier build actually casts better. The heavier guides/wraps/finish will load the blank when casting and the 1/64th jig just goes along for the ride. 1/64th t can still load the rod, just not as well. Personally, I've always thought that if I want max distance, I need to use a UL blank that is on the heavier end of the rating and heavier build so that the rod will load properly by itself. But that goes against everything I desire aesthetically - I build for as lightweight as possible with finish that is barely above the silk wraps and titanium everything. :)

6. It's all a matter of what distance you want the cast to go. The 1/64 won't cast as far as a 1/32 but it can still be cast a remarkable distance for its weight - at least far enough to be effective.

So, there's no secret but hope something in this post may be helpful.

And one more thing. I don't know if jigs advertised as 1/64th are REALLY that light but going by size compared to 1/32, I believe it. The 1/32 I weighed are generally in that ball park. (I'm a bit of a weight weenie and use a scale that weighs to 1/1000th of an ounce and fuss over every tiny bit of weight that goes on my rod and reel - LOL)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2018 01:23PM by Mo Yang.

I use 1/64th rods all of the time and use 7'6" steel head rods to cast them 50 yards.

There is only one thing needed - a rocket bobber that is attached to the line above the 1/64th oz jig.

Best of luck

Mo,
Please ignore the gorilla casting baseballs at the trout.
The trout can be quite spooky of overhead objects in clear water. I've even spooked them casting a fly line over the fish.
Your post is well received but short on specifics.
The feat is none the less outstanding.
You must pay considerable time selecting blanks, tip top and tip guides.
The further the guides are placed away from the tip the more tip velocity will be imparted to the jig.
Larger spool diameters produce greater distances if they are filled by allowing more line per rotation. At any velocity the line rotation will be lower.The stripper diameter may require an increase and height will have to be adjusted to get the most effect.
If you'd rather post this off-line I understand
I at least know it can be done and will venture it again.
Cast release timing is very important and I might not be the right individual, but I've some friends that might be suitable.

Thanks again,
Gene

Greetings Gene,

I've received so much help on this forum that I'm indebted to the members of this forum far more than I can ever hope to repay.

In that light, I do not want to be impolite and not respond to your post. I am however at a bit of a loss at your comment, 'If you'd rather post this off-line I understand.' The implication seems to be that I am holding out. However, as I wrote, "NO secrets. Glad to share." I was not being coy. I am not holding anything back. And by your post, it seems that you do have considerable thoughts on casting very light lures. You are free to share as much as you want of course.

Roger, thanks for the tip on the Rocket Bobber. Did a bit of research and found that it is indeed a specific item and seem effective. Ordered two today. Though I almost never ever use a bobber, I have always wished for better bobber design and these may come in handy for Crappie fishing or even suspended midge fishing using light spinning tackle...:).

Mo

Gene,
I have a question about "The further the guides are placed away from the tip the more tip velocity will be imparted to the jig. ". About how far from the tip are you placing your first guide on the u.l. blanks that you use? 6" -8" longer? Shorter? Just wondering.
Thanks

Gary,
Typically my first guide is approx. 64X the tip diameter.
To obtain higher performance I'll go up to 96X.
On most UL's I've built this is around 4 in..
I'll have to check the weight of the light wire fly tops I'm now seeing. They may be lighter than the insert guides I'm presently using.
When it grooves I'll just replace it.
The only target is actual tip velocity at release given the light jig head.
To pull more line for improved distance, tip velocity is paramount. Lighter tip guides, even light wire single foot titanium, may be also utilized.
I typically use inserted guides but on light line this might not be necessary.

Gene