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Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: August 15, 2018 10:23AM

KR Concept has been MASTERED by many on this site and it's very gratifying to see all the support. But I'm guessing for every guy who posts a question here there are 25 guys sitting at a bench trying to figure it out. I'm wondering if "sets" of guides would help - an approved "group" in a bag with instructions. A 25H, 12H, 5.5M...or 20H, 10H, 5.5M. Runners up to you.

I would appreciate it if some of our "readers" would comment (guys who don't contribute but still learn a lot here).

A simple yes or no comment would be fine.

Thanks!

CroakerJO
AnglerJO

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.75.---)
Date: August 15, 2018 11:17AM

Well, when i first looked into the KR concept guides i found the sets at Mudhole and after posting about the sizes on this site i found they were incorrectly matched . I know you said you were going to look into that but i have no idea if anything came from it. If the sets were correctly matched like your example above i think that would be helpful to SOME people who are confused about it .


On the other hand i have found the Anglers Resource site with the GPS software to be a tremendous help . People should be able to input the rod length , butt to reels extended spool measurement and line choice and just click and the software spits out incredibly accurate info . Was a life saver to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2018 11:20AM by herb canter.

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: John Tallyn (---.dhcp.chtrptr.net)
Date: August 15, 2018 12:32PM

Yes, for those of us that build one or two rods a year a pre made kit matched to rod length would be very helpful. Even if I end up not using all the running guides after testing I would find it useful. Was not aware mudhole's sets were mismatched, need to spend more time reading this forum. My 2c worth.
John

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Donald R Campbell (---)
Date: August 15, 2018 12:33PM

Ditto to herb's comment!

Don Campbell
don@sensorfishingrods.com

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 15, 2018 02:31PM

The kits would have to be matched to the reel moreso than the rod.

.........

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 15, 2018 04:53PM

Tom is correct, need to match to reel and line used. Most of the spin rods I build are for freshwater (ultralight and bass), and light inshore fishing (speckled trout, redfish, etc). Reel sizes vary from 1000 to 3000 with 5 to 30# braid. For these rods I mostly use just two KR guide groupings for my reduction trains, KL16H, KL8H, and KL5.5M for UL, L and ML rods with light braid, and KL20H, KL10H, and KL5.5M for M, MH, and H rods with 15 to 30 braid. With a 4000 or larger reel and 20 - 30# braid I will occasionally use a KL25H, KL12H, KL6M reduction train. Rarely do I use a 4 guide reduction train, and will only use one on a long moderate action rod.
The problems with the Mud Hole KL-H guide kits is that reel and line size are not taken into acount, they only use a 4 guide reduction train, and in some cases there is a mismatch in the guide sizes used. I also do not like a guide placeement chart, because the reel location in not taken into account. I also think that a guide placed less than 3" from the tip top is much too close. I certainly would not recommend the Mudhole KL-H guide kits to anyone.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2018 04:59PM by Norman Miller.

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 15, 2018 05:41PM

I think the guide match with the line is more important than the rod or the reel. Rod is certainly last in priority. In the Anglers Resource catalog there are simple, clear, recommendations on the reduction guides. Very easy to follow and you can order guides with confidence without having to order extras. After reduction guides are selected the running guides, KB and KT are a piece of cake. I recommend designing for the heaviest line you intend on using, keeping in mind knot clearance. What you come up with will work well with any lighter line.

I really don't think offering sets is the right answer. Consulting the catalog, selecting reduction guides based on the Fuji "groups," moving the group on the rod for max performance, then the final locating of the runners based on stress test is the answer.

I think Norm's groups are consistent with the Fuji recommendations, but I have not taken the time to check. There is absolutely no reason to do a four guide reduction train. I've done Y guides with two and with the right line, works fine. The Fuji setups with the KL5.5 M is very close to a two guide reduction if you use 5.5 runners. With the light braids almost anything will work.

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: August 15, 2018 06:02PM

They would be specific to reel and line parameters if we chose to do it.

Thanks for the kudos on GPS and the catalog. I thought I had addressed it every way possible (as simply as possible) but the questions never stop.

Herb: We cannot control the recommendations our customers make. Everyone has access to the same information, how they use it is not up to us. Information we pass on comes from Fuji.

As I suspected, the "MASTERS" are chiming in. Would appreciate some comments from guys like John Tallyn above. Those are the guys that might like some help.

Thanks gentlemen!

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.75.---)
Date: August 15, 2018 06:43PM

Jim, i see the post where you said you were going to look into the mismatched Fuji KR guide kits from Mudhole was edited about a week later where you now say you have no control over what retailers come up with . I didn't know you edited it so my apologies.


I asked about the sets many months back and Norm immediately new they were not Fuji's recommendations as shown below .

Norm said " I feel confident that Fuji did not put the set together. In all probability it was done by Mudhole. I do not think Anglers Resource would let something like that go out, since it is not what Fuji recommends"




Michael Danek " Consulting the catalog, selecting reduction guides based on the Fuji "groups," moving the group on the rod for max performance, then the final locating of the runners based on stress test is the answer"

I agree with that but as Jim said"

" I'm guessing for every guy who posts a question here there are 25 guys sitting at a bench trying to figure it out"

Thats why Jim is considering offering the sets because as long as the KR concept has been out and many people do not have a problem with it there are many that continue to be confused by it .


" There is absolutely no reason to do a four guide reduction train"


Fuji's only recommendation for the four guide reduction train is on longer very moderate rods .

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: August 15, 2018 08:11PM

If guide kits are needed, then, for most freshwater bass, walleye and trout spinning rods of almost any length, power, and action you can’t go wrong designing KR guide kits around two different reduction guide groups. For small reels and/or light line use the KL16H, KL8H, and KL5.5M group with runners of your choice up to size KB/KT5.5. For medium reels and/or heavier line the KL20H, KL10H, and KL5.5M group would be used with the runner of you choice up to size 5.5. For both groups, the number of runners would vary dependent on rod length, and there would be one KB runner used as the choke guide, with the possibility of one more KB runner. Again for most inshore saltwater rods, two different reduction guides groups would be used, the KL20H, KL10H, KL5.5M (KL6M) group as above, or the KL25H, KL12H, KL6M group with runners up to size 6 when using larger reels and/ or heavier line. These would work for greater than 90% of rod builds and simplify guide selection.
Norm

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: August 16, 2018 11:28AM

HA! Norm is starting to get this stuff on a whole new level. He has (almost) "snatched the pebble from my hand".

The beauty of the concept is its width.

200+ people have seen this post and 5 or 6 have commented. Maybe everybody gets it. Maybe I'll take a vacation.

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: August 16, 2018 03:43PM

Certainly if one wishes, one can do a perfect match for a given reel.

But, many of my clients as well as myself will use many different reels with a given rod over years of use.

As a result, I tend to build most rods, so that they will work perfectly with a size 2500 reel and still do a very very good job with reels of any other size.

But, it is certainly up to the builder and the wishes of his client or him/her self during the build to make the guide choices.

if there is one thing that has come out of the work during the last few years, is the majority of move in guide size to a 2 or a 3 guide reduction train. Most folks find that there is just no need to go with more guide sizes on the typical rod being built.

Good luck

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (118.210.194.---)
Date: August 16, 2018 04:30PM

Hi Jim,
I only placed my first order for some KR guides last night.I am putting some new guides on a rod that had poor quality guides.I am a complete newbie and this is going to be my first shot at rod building. For me I don't think a guide set would have helped me much or at all. For me I read the pages on the Anglers Rsrc site and some on this site using the search function. It did take awhile but I now have a greater understanding of the K R system as well as other systems in general. The other thing for me was a mental barrier to get over as my other light spin rods have 25mm strippers but the KR has called for a 16 mm. I put a post up on this site last week asking about the KR layouts for 5lb braid and a 2500s size Shimano reel. The replies I got from this gave me the confidence to order the 16h,8h,5.5m set . I believe that education and knowledge are where people need help rather than a this is what you need bag of bits and pieces. Even if it is the right bag of guides they still won't know why the are the right ones.Thanks for the great info on the Anglers Rsrc site keep up the good work.And thanks to the good folks right here at Rodbuilding.org.
Tight lines Scott.

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Kevin Althoff (45.52.37.---)
Date: August 17, 2018 12:02AM

I let you guys talk me in to my first KR build. It was a great learning experience. I don't think a kit would have helped me.

Learning how the theory works and how to build it for my specific outfit was what made the idea work for me. Kit or not, people aren't inclined to take some newfangled idea that makes no sense to them and try to build a rod with it. You guys put a lot of effort in to educating people on how the idea works, and the information is out there. If people want to get the most out of their rods, eventually the KR concept will catch their eye and they will start to use all that information.

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Mark Brown (---)
Date: August 18, 2018 11:16AM

Jim, this site is my go to for information. I've done 10 builds or so and it's been a journey. I'm finally at a point where I understand the kr concept but it was not easy to get there. Mostly because there is a lot of information out there on other techniques and the kr concept is relatively new. Even the lingo describing guides confused the heck out of me initially. The concept I think is easy enough. I do like the idea of a kit with instructions for builder who has yet to get. Or just have a link to all of norms posts . Very helpful. -mark

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Scott Appley (---.glt-wy.client.bresnan.net)
Date: August 18, 2018 05:23PM

Yes

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Don Mang (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: August 19, 2018 07:33PM

I'm still in the research stage of rod building, hopefully in the next two weeks I'll order a building kit. I am 67 years young, and have always wanted to build a rod. Looking at the videos it looks easy. But after joining this forum, I am taking a lot of notes, and still a lot of it is hard to decipher, just overwhelming. I will start with replacing guides. My hobby has been collecting and restoring Mitchell reels. But I hope this works out for the winter months, went i'm not fishing

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Ernest Horvath (---.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 19, 2018 11:22PM

Jim, education is the key. Once folks figure out or are shown how to use the GPS guidance pages, guide selection become second nature. Now on the other hand, some of the new reels present a challenge because there is a minimal angle on the body of the reel. I think one thing that confuses folks is the fact that factory rods use larger guides than are necessary for stripper guides because they don't know what reel is going to be used on the rod. And even with the GPS guidance the stripper guide chosen by many is larger than necessary. Once folks figure out the whole package is geared toward line control, they are very pleased with the results.

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Tom Wewerka (---.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
Date: August 20, 2018 09:46PM

I totally agree with Norm and

Yes


Tom

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Re: Something I wonder about...
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: August 22, 2018 10:26AM

Great discussion gentlemen. Seems like the information is out there and, like I have preached for years, there are no real shortcuts to understanding the why. The "why" will set you free. Having said that, the results always lead to three main kits in KR so the question becomes - would you like to order a single item to get the three KR reduction guides you need or would you rather find and order those same three guides? And would that single item number help newbies avoid mistakes?

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