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Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (118.210.194.---)
Date: August 12, 2018 06:42AM

Hi guy's, Have a rod that needs new guides.As a beginner it will be a good learning process for me I hope. Want to use Fuji's Kr concept on it and just want to double check that what I plan to do is right.Have read a lot of info on the subject on the Anglers Rsrc pages.It is a 6'7" graphite rod with medium to fast action.A Shimano 2500 size reel spooled with 5lb power pro braid and 8lb mono leaders.From the KR groups page I have decided that My rod and reel fall into the micro rod up to 15lb category.
3 guide reduction train of kl16h,kl8h,kl5.5m and kt5.5 running guides.
And is the choke the first running guide?
Does this sound correct for the rod and reel I have? I have no experience with this so just want to confirm before I order guides.
Thanks for any advice that you can give a newbie.
Tight lines Scott.

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Ken Patek (47.201.57.---)
Date: August 12, 2018 08:13AM

Scott,

I myself am still in the learning process of properly laying out guides, but here are some things I have learned.

1. The rod to reel seat relationship will tell you the proper guide layout, so I found it best to order sizes around what you may think will be the proper reduction train, in addition to the sizes you think.Nothing worse than guessing wrong, and have to wait for new guides and pay the shipping. Only with experience building the same/similar set up will you know ahead of time the proper reduction.

2. Yes, the first smallest guide is your choke.

3. Always test cast the setup, listening/looking for line slap and distance. I've found that the distance aspect is usually pretty good 1st shot, if you used the "line" drawn from your reel to the choke for reduction placement. However, if you go too big of a ring size (thus positioning your butt guide too close to the reel) or too small (thus placing the butt guide too far), that's when you'll get the line slap. For inshore rigs that I've built, using 10lb braid on 2500-3500 reels, I've found you want to size the butt guide so it falls somewhere between 19-23" away from the lip of the spool. That may or may not hold true for your setup (I honestly don't know)

4. Once you're happy with the casting, then static test for placement of the running guides. I'm still trying to figure out if you should mess with the reduction layout if you see angles that are too big (like on a slow/moderate action), but I've been told to build for casting performance 1st, then static (of course that also depends on the application).

That is my long winded answer instead of just saying, what you've got listed looks ok, but order some additional sizes on top of that and let the setup tell you what to use..

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 12, 2018 08:55AM

I see no need to buy any extra guide sizes. The reduction guides are right on; I have built that setup a number of times, it is the Fuji recommended setup, and as long as you don't want to use braid heavier than 15, it will work fine. Test cast with a couple different locations for the reduction set. I don't think the placement of the running guides based on static testing will affect casting performance. I would order 5 running guides.

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Rod Siemens (---)
Date: August 12, 2018 09:42AM

Scott

You will get lots of great advice form some experts on here.

I'm no expert but I have built several rods similar to your build. Closest to your build would be the 6'3" st croix medium action rods that I built. I started out with nearly the same reduction train as you, 16, 8, 5.5 and then 5mm running guides. They performed OK but not great. I removed the guides and went with the 20, 10, 5.5 and 5mm runners and the rod performs better. I am using 8lb mono and /or 10 lb braided lines.

I think this is partly because the spool diameter of the 2500 is 40 or 44mm, something like that (my build book is not with me right now). The first guide should be approximately half that diameter or the spool, or a 20. Event though the computer layout program says to use a 16, in my opinion, the 20, 10mm for the first two guides performs better.

I place my choke guides using the 27X method and work back towards the reel with the reduction guides. The butt or stripper ended up around 20 inches form the reel face, maybe a little more.

That's my input, for what it's worth. Good luck!

Rod

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.76.---)
Date: August 12, 2018 01:47PM

I have found Fuji's software that tells you what guide sizes and spacing for KR rod setups to be virtually dead on . I use a KL-H 20 for the stripper with a Shimano Stradic 5000 with 10 pound braid on an 8 foot inshore rod and it's an absolute rocket launcher , if i was using a Shimano 2500 size reel with braid 15 pound or under i would definitely drop to a 16 KL-H for the stripper .


Just my opinion and what i have found from extensive test casting .

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (118.210.194.---)
Date: August 12, 2018 04:16PM

Thanks for the input guy's.Actualy have 2 of the same rod and both have guides that are breaking.Never had guides break like it before so they must have used some rubbish on them.One rod will get the kr set up and the other will get a more traditional high frame y guide set up.The proof will be in the pudding I guess.Thanks for sharing your knowledge.The y guides look like they will use a 25 as a stripper so a 16 for the kr set up is a big difference.Cheers Scott.

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: August 12, 2018 07:12PM

With the very light braid and 2500 reel you are planning on using, the size 16 KLH stripper is just fine. I personally prefer size 5 or 4.5 KB/KT (mostly 4.5) runners, but size 5.5 runners will also work well. For a 6’6” to 7’ rod I mostly use 9 total guides, 3 reduction guides and 6 KB/KT runners. You can get by with 8 total guides, but the 7 recommended by the KR GPS, in my opinion, are just too few. So I would order one or two more runners. I have found for a 2500/3000 reel that a KL20H, KL10H and KL5.5M reduction train gives you a little more versatility if you ever want to use heavier line, with out affecting performance with the lighter line. There is not a lot of difference in how you set up a size 16 vs 20 stripper reduction guide train. For example, either stripper could be placed at 19.5” in front of the reel spool with the choke guide placed 20”-21” in front of the stripper with the other two reduction guides placed progressively between them. I like to use the metric system for placing guides because it makes measureing so much easier. I usually place the first runner at about 9 or10 cm from the tip top, and then progressively increase the distance between guides by 1 cm or so for the first several guides then gradually increase the distance a little toward the choke if needed. You can move the choke guide in or out a little bit to get a good looking progression of guides. When you are happy with the spacing, static test and then test cast. You will quickly realize that very little guide adjustments be be required, and I think you will be happy with the proformance. I really do like your idea of testing a NGC rod vs a KR concept rod They both will perform very similar, but KR concept will give you a lighter rod that feels crisper. Experimentation is the way to go!
Norm

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 13, 2018 07:26AM

I forgot to mention that I would use two KB's , then the KT's.

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (118.210.194.---)
Date: August 13, 2018 07:30AM

Thank you very much for taking the time to give your advice and suggestions. This has helped me a lot and I am looking forward to getting to work.Tight lines Scott

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: August 18, 2018 12:28PM

What is the "concept" in Kr concept guides, or is "concept" a marketing term only? I haven't built anything but fly rods for several years but I would like to keep up in case I need to build a conventional or a spinning rod.

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: August 18, 2018 04:42PM

Phil, the concept part comes from "the new guide concept" see the library. The KR concept followed as a further refinement of that. At least that's how I see it.

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: August 19, 2018 09:50AM

Lynn: Thanks, I read it. The suggestions for guide placement, any brand guides presumably, seem sensible, but the idea that lighter guides make better performing rods is hardly a "new guide concept". That's what confused me.

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Re: Kr concept guide layout
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: August 19, 2018 10:42AM

The KR concept is a braid / microguide refinement of the the NGC which employs tangle free (K) guides. The concept involves high frame small ring KL-H guides to better control and rapidly choke the line down to small ringed low profile running guides,KB (belly) and KT (tip) guides. The smaller size of these guides makes them lighter than the NGC guides and thus the overall weight of the rod is reduced. In my opinion the KR concept has many benefits, and it is an improvement over all other guide concepts I have used. I think Fuji gave it the KR designation to denote K Revolution. Hope this helps.
Norm

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